Netbook Remix launcher

[Liam Proven]

2009/1/14 Robert McWilliam <rmcw at allmail.net>:
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 07:59:14PM +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
>> You try doing an apt-get remove evolution-data-server then. Note
>> carefully the list of other packages that will be removed. Note that
>> gnome-panel is one of them.
>
> gnome-panel actually doesn't depend on evolution-data-server (at least
> on 8.10) it just recommends it which is the right behaviour since
> there are features that will stop working without it but the panel
> itself will still run. Which version are you seeing the dependency on
> (it looks like this might be a packaging bug which has been fixed)?

I shall have to double-check, as in the last month, I've installed at
least 2 or 3 each of 8.04 and 8.10 systems, mostly for friends, but
several on constrained hardware. I tend to favour 8.04 though, unless
the system is just for playing around and experimenting with. My own
machine, a live production box, runs 8.10, though. I don't have any
pressing disk space issues, though.
>
>> Integrating part of *one specific application* to provide a
>> (non-essential) function is a bad idea in what is meant to be a
>> modular, CORBA-based desktop.
>
> Are you objecting to the fact that calendar/PIM integration exists at
> all or something specific with the way it's been done?
>
> Integrating part of an app that does what you want isn't a bad idea:
> it's *great* software engineering.

If it ties unrelated products together, it's a bad plan. There are
abundant examples of this from the commercial software world,
especially when single companies sell both OSs and applications (e.g.
MS, Apple, Sun and arguably IBM, HP and other Unix vendors.)

>> Then rename it as such, and let's see some sign of any other app
>> whatsoever using this interface.
>
> Renaming something takes effort: you have to change all references to
> it in other code, packages and documentation. Why expend that effort
> what's actually wrong with the current name?

If I may remind you, it wasn't my suggestion...

>> This is a piece of irrelevant, unnecessary functionality. I expect my
>> system clock to show me the time and date and maybe a simple calendar
>> on demand.
> <snip>
>> The Unix philosophy is meant to be about multiple small, separate
>> programs working together to achieve complex tasks.
>>
>> But here, we have a desktop environment that includes an email client
>> that includes a scheduling app. These are different jobs.
>>
>> If one user wants to use an all-in-one tool, good for them. But
>> others, such as myself, do not. The thing is, I have had the option
>> taken away.
>>
>> This is a retrograde step.
>
> You seem to be objecting to the existence of a feature that you don't
> want to use. Other people do want it. The current implementation is
> the best way to deal with the existence of both types of people: those
> who want to use the feature can, those who don't can either ignore it
> or if they really want the storage space back can remove most of the
> code that implements it[1].

No, I am not. I am objecting to needing parts of an entire app I don't
want (Evolution) in order to have a piece of software I *do* want (the
GNOME desktop).

> The Unix philosophy of small, separate, tightly focussed apps is not a
> dogma that must be adhered to sometimes integrating a lot of
> functionality in one app makes sense. I personally use apps at both
> extremes of this: emacs is the canonical example of feature bloat and
> my mail client of choice (mutt) is very much just a mail client (no
> integrated editor, doesn't send mail...). Everybody thinks the optimum
> is in a different place so the default for a distro has to be
> something that will work for as many people as possible - if you want
> the default changed to remove a feature you'll need evidence of what
> harm it does by being there and that not many people want it. I don't
> know how many people use the calendar integration with the clock (I've
> seen two people rave about how good it is) but I don't see what harm
> it does by being there.

I'm not fond of Emacs, either, but "Eight megs and constantly
swapping" is not a restriction any more. A 20MB text editor no longer
seems especially large in 2009.

The harm is in unnecessarily tying unrelated programs together, e.g.
gnome-panel with (part of) Evolution.

The entire computer industry has been damaged because MS was allowed
to bundle IE with Windows - not just Netscape, forced out of business
by unfair and illegal competition. (MS' defence in court, for those
with short memories, is that IE wasn't a product, it was part of
Windows... Despite the fact that prior to Win98, IE hadn't even been
included and was just an optional extra.) We've all suffered because
of the loss of bandwidth to spam, the security necessary to defend
against vast botnets of compromised Windows boxes, the bank fraud that
pushes up our bank charges, etc. etc.

Bundling is bad. Tying apps together unnecessarily is bad. It's a
commercial-software disease and I am dismayed to see it in Free
Software.

> [1] Some has to stay because ubuntu is a binary distribution so you
> don't get to remove libraries that something else is going to call. In
> source based distributions (gentoo and friends) you can recompile
> things with features removed and so remove the dependencies of that
> feature. If you want the ability to pick and choose which features an
> app has it might be worth having a play with a source based distro (or
> compiling your own gnome-panel if it's the only place this annoys you).

As I have said elsewhere in this thread and the next one along, I
install lots of machines for lots of people. An increasing number, I'm
happy to say. Custom distros, code changes and so on are not an
option.

And I've tried Gentoo, for planned review purposes, and I utterly
hated it. Three days to install a broken system that wouldn't boot
properly. Horrid mess.

I am not some anally-retentive nutjob that wants not a byte of wasted
disk; I'm a pragmatic techie who would like to see a very negative
trend from the Windows and OS/X world *not* spread to Ubuntu.

 --
Liam Proven • Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven
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