Dead List Walking

Tue Apr 19 23:58:14 UTC 2011

Ok, Mike, I get that whatever comes after Sounder needs to be
radically different and address some of the issues that Sounder failed
to address.

What issues?

What specifically is wrong with Sounder that needs to be addressed?
And please go beyond the "it's filled its purpose" because that's a
bit too vague. What would a Sounder replacement need to look like in
your opinion (I realize you can't speak for the entire CC)?

Anthony

On 4/19/11, Mike Basinger <mike.basinger at ubuntu.com> wrote:
> I wanted to make sure I was not getting hopes up.
>
> Is Sounder closing: yes
> Would the CC listen to a suggestion something Sounder-like being created in
> the future: maybe but unlikely unless it was radically different
>
> Mike
>
> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:21 PM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>
>> So even though "nothing is final", it's final that Sounder is closing.
>> Ok.  Makes sense if you don't think about it lol
>>
>> Anthony
>>
>>
>> On 4/19/11, Mike Basinger <mike.basinger at ubuntu.com> wrote:
>>> Don't get your hopes up, sounder is closing. Could something else open in
>>> the future, maybe, but unlikely.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:11 PM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>>>
>>>> So there you have it everyone. There might be a chance to save Sounder
>>>> yet. So let's discuss what changes might be needed in order to make
>>>> this a list Canonical sees value in keeping and subscribers still can
>>>> derive value from.
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts? Ideas?
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to *strongly* suggest loose moderation. Nothing too crazy but
>>>> just enough to stop the religious and political wars from getting as
>>>> hateful as they have.  I'd even volunteer to help out with that.
>>>>
>>>> Anthony
>>>>
>>>> On 4/19/11, Mike Basinger <mike.basinger at ubuntu.com> wrote:
>>>>> I can't speak for the rest of the CC, but in my opinion no decision
>>>>> final
>>>>> since circumstances can change. I think it would have to be a fairly
>>>>> large
>>>>> change in how sounder is run and the tone of sounder post to get many
>>>>> of
>>>>> us
>>>>> to change our minds.
>>>>>
>>>>> I personally think Sounder has ran its course and it is time to go.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>> On Apr 19, 2011, at 4:43 PM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't doubt that the list has been a concern for the CC for a while.
>>>>>> The more I think about it, the more I see that shutting it down was a
>>>>>> *logical* thing to do, especially in light of the fact that no
>>>>>> alternatives were proposed to doing so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for popey not being emotionally driven, I'm not entirely convinced
>>>>>> of that but it's irrelevant at this point and not worth debating
>>>>>> really. I think a better question to focus on is "where do we go from
>>>>>> here?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is the CC decision final? Is there no hope for sounder or can it still
>>>>>> be saved if a good plan for its governance can be proposed to the CC?
>>>>>> Like I said, shutting it down is logical in light of its current state
>>>>>> but what other options are there?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anthony
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/19/11, Mike Basinger <mike.basinger at ubuntu.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> We were very surprised that no one showed up at the meeting to defend
>>>>>>> Sounder or give any possible alternatives. As this being emotionally
>>>>>>> driven
>>>>>>> by popey, it was not. Sounder has been an issue on the CC radar for
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>> time, popey just saw that thing were not improving.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike Basinger
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 19, 2011, at 4:12 PM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure this is all Popey's fault.  While he certainly did
>>>>>>>> spearhead the effort to shut down the list, it doesn't look like
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> was a whole lot of constructive alternatives discussed and, from
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> I saw, nobody even showed up to the CC meeting to defend Sounder. Of
>>>>>>>> course, perhaps someone showed up late to the meeting as I'm not
>>>>>>>> through the transcript yet but it looks like there was nobody.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm also not sure what the purpose of reforming the Sounder list
>>>>>>>> somewhere else might be - or the value. While I've gotten value from
>>>>>>>> this list, I have to say it's nothing that can't be found elsewhere.
>>>>>>>> Want to discuss Ubuntu or Linux in general? There are lists for
>>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>>> Politics? Tech? Religion? There are lists for those too. I'm not
>>>>>>>> entirely convinced that a good list should or even can sustain all
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> those topics and keep quality.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The one thing I *can* and *do* fault popey on is that his decision
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> propose shutting Sounder down seems to have been more emotionally
>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>> critically motivated. It's even briefly addressed in the CC meeting
>>>>>>>> because they knew many of us would see it that way. It all just
>>>>>>>> seems
>>>>>>>> a little to slap on the wrist for my tastes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sad to see Sounder go but I suppose I can see both sides.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anthony
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/19/11, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 19 April 2011 22:45, sktsee <sktseer at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Heh, my first, and last post to this list.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/TeamReports/11/April
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Meeting 2011-04-19
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> CC decided to close the Sounders mailing list. In essence, this is
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> decision to prune areas of the project which are offtopic or
>>>>>>>>>> ungoverned,
>>>>>>>>>> on the basis that they distract from our shared community focus on
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> goal of delivering free software in the best possible state, on
>>>>>>>>>> particular terms (free of charge, cadence). While we appreciate
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> Sounders list (and possibly other, similar forums) provide a
>>>>>>>>>> particular
>>>>>>>>>> social release for those who use them, we think there are better
>>>>>>>>>> forums
>>>>>>>>>> for each of the varied topics discussed there. Some of those are
>>>>>>>>>> inside
>>>>>>>>>> the project, most are elsewhere.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Transcript of IRC meeting log here:
>>>>>>>>>> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/04/19/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> sktsee
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "We finally really did it. You maniacs! You blew it up! Damn you.
>>>>>>>>> God
>>>>>>>>> damn you all to hell!"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks a ******* lot, Popey, you ****** ******* *******.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do folk think there's any point starting our own mailing list to
>>>>>>>>> replace Sounder or should we just disband?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Liam Proven • Info & profile:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
>>>>>>>>> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut:
>>>>>>>>> lproven at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44
>>>>>>>>> 870-9151419
>>>>>>>>> AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • MSN: lproven at hotmail.com • ICQ:
>>>>>>>>> 73187508
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> sounder mailing list
>>>>>>>>> sounder at lists.ubuntu.com
>>>>>>>>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/sounder
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Sent from my mobile device
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anthony Papillion
>>>>>>>> Lead Developer / Owner
>>>>>>>> Get real about your software/web development and IT Services
>>>>>>>> (918) 919-4624
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cajuntechie
>>>>>>>> My Blog:   http://www.cajuntechie.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> sounder mailing list
>>>>>>>> sounder at lists.ubuntu.com
>>>>>>>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
>>>>>>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/sounder
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mike Basinger
>>>>>>> mike.basinger at ubuntu.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Sent from my mobile device
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anthony Papillion
>>>>>> Lead Developer / Owner
>>>>>> Get real about your software/web development and IT Services
>>>>>> (918) 919-4624
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cajuntechie
>>>>>> My Blog:   http://www.cajuntechie.com
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Mike Basinger
>>>>> mike.basinger at ubuntu.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my mobile device
>>>>
>>>> Anthony Papillion
>>>> Lead Developer / Owner
>>>> Get real about your software/web development and IT Services
>>>> (918) 919-4624
>>>>
>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cajuntechie
>>>> My Blog:   http://www.cajuntechie.com
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mike Basinger
>>> mike.basinger at ubuntu.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my mobile device
>>
>> Anthony Papillion
>> Lead Developer / Owner
>> Get real about your software/web development and IT Services
>> (918) 919-4624
>>
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cajuntechie
>> My Blog:   http://www.cajuntechie.com
>
> --
> Mike Basinger
> mike.basinger at ubuntu.com
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Sent from my mobile device

Anthony Papillion
Lead Developer / Owner
Get real about your software/web development and IT Services
(918) 919-4624

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cajuntechie
My Blog:   http://www.cajuntechie.com