From halim.sahin at freenet.de Sat Jun 4 07:49:37 2011 From: halim.sahin at freenet.de (Halim Sahin) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 09:49:37 +0200 Subject: Lubuntu and Accessibility In-Reply-To: <20110524031432.GA28163@strigy.yelavich.home> References: <20110524031432.GA28163@strigy.yelavich.home> Message-ID: <20110604074937.GA25814@gentoo.local> Hi, On Di, Mai 24, 2011 at 01:14:32 +1000, Luke Yelavich wrote: > The first thing is making sure LXDE is actually accessible, i.e make > sure it has keyboard shortcuts, and supports the launching of the > accessibility framework at startup etc. As to using the LXDE GUI with > Orca etc, I think the biggest problem here is the use of python. The Hmm, do you think we should replace orca in all desktop environments by a c-implementation? Slow performance is not related to lxde only. Orca isn't faster in gnome as well so I can't understand what you want to say here. Regarding lxde a11y: I played a bit with the components in the past. The most dificult problem was to run at-spi-registryd before the first gtk app starts. The application menu works (ctrl+esc). pcmanfm in desktopmode doesn't read anything. pcmanfm started in filemanager mode works when changing to details in menu->view. The buttons/panels are not accessible on the desktop because of missing keyboard shortcuts afaik. HTH. Halim From alex.midence at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 01:42:07 2011 From: alex.midence at gmail.com (Alex Midence) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 20:42:07 -0500 Subject: Lubuntu and Accessibility Message-ID: I seem to recall that Klaus Knopix is reputed to have had some success making LXDE accessible in his Knopix Adrienne distribution. Perhaps that is something that could be used as reference? As for python-related slowness in Orca, I would tend to agree. C is just faster than Python. Interpreted languages are going to require far more memory and resources than compiled ones in many cases. Actually, a saner thing would be an implementation of orca written in both C or c++ and Python. The low-level code in c and the more scriptable areas in Python. This is what NVDA's devs did and it's a slighning fast screen reader on a bloated system like Windows. While we're wishing, I'll go ahead and wish for iaccessible2 support instead of complete and exclusive reliance on at-spi/at-spi2 so that more widget toolkits might become accessible since some of them do support iaccessible2 but not at-spi. I'm on a orle here so, I'll keep wishing. I want a faster, lag-free web browsing experience with something akin to an off screen model, navigation by element list. and an expanded list of elements by which one can navigate like div and span. The inferior browsing experience in Linux is the only thing that keeps me going back to windows. Just my two cents, Alex Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 09:49:37 +0200 From: Halim Sahin To: ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility > Message-ID: <20110604074937.GA25814 at gentoo.local> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Hi, > On Di, Mai 24, 2011 at 01:14:32 +1000, Luke Yelavich wrote: >> The first thing is making sure LXDE is actually accessible, i.e make >> sure it has keyboard shortcuts, and supports the launching of the >> accessibility framework at startup etc. As to using the LXDE GUI with >> Orca etc, I think the biggest problem here is the use of python. The > > Hmm, do you think we should replace orca in all desktop environments by > a c-implementation? > Slow performance is not related to lxde only. Orca isn't faster in gnome > as well so I can't understand what you want to say here. > > Regarding lxde a11y: > I played a bit with the components in the past. > The most dificult problem was to run at-spi-registryd before the first > gtk app starts. > > The application menu works (ctrl+esc). > pcmanfm in desktopmode doesn't read anything. > pcmanfm started in filemanager mode works when changing to details in > menu->view. > > The buttons/panels are not accessible on the desktop because of missing > keyboard shortcuts afaik. > HTH. > Halim > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > -- > Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list > Ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility > > > End of Ubuntu-accessibility Digest, Vol 67, Issue 2 > *************************************************** > From frederik.gladhorn at nokia.com Mon Jun 6 20:05:53 2011 From: frederik.gladhorn at nokia.com (frederik.gladhorn at nokia.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 20:05:53 +0000 Subject: Lubuntu and Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, On Jun 6, 2011, at 3:42 AM, ext Alex Midence wrote: > I seem to recall that Klaus Knopix is reputed to have had some success > making LXDE accessible in his Knopix Adrienne distribution. Perhaps > that is something that could be used as reference? As for > python-related slowness in Orca, I would tend to agree. C is just > faster than Python. Interpreted languages are going to require far > more memory and resources than compiled ones in many cases. > > Actually, a saner thing would be an implementation of orca written in > both C or c++ and Python. The low-level code in c and the more > scriptable areas in Python. This is what NVDA's devs did and it's a > slighning fast screen reader on a bloated system like Windows. While > we're wishing, I'll go ahead and wish for iaccessible2 support instead > of complete and exclusive reliance on at-spi/at-spi2 so that more > widget toolkits might become accessible since some of them do support > iaccessible2 but not at-spi. the APIs of IAccessible2 and at-spi2 are very similar. Their big difference is the implementation. IAccessible2 (based on MSAA) uses Windows COM for inter process communication. at-spi2 uses dbus. That means having IAccessible2 on Linux doesn't make much sense. And implementing it using DBus you end up with exactly at-spi2. Please don't propose solutions that simply don't match the problem. Instead of speculating about performance we should use profiling tools to see where the performance lags. I suspect DBus is a large part of it. And the way we use DBus is used is another big issue. Python may or may not play a role. Greetings, Frederik > I'm on a orle here so, I'll keep > wishing. I want a faster, lag-free web browsing experience with > something akin to an off screen model, navigation by element list. > and an expanded list of elements by which one can navigate like div > and span. The inferior browsing experience in Linux is the only > thing that keeps me going back to windows. > > Just my two cents, > Alex > > > > Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 09:49:37 +0200 > From: Halim Sahin > To: ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com > Subject: Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility >> Message-ID: <20110604074937.GA25814 at gentoo.local> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> Hi, >> On Di, Mai 24, 2011 at 01:14:32 +1000, Luke Yelavich wrote: >>> The first thing is making sure LXDE is actually accessible, i.e make >>> sure it has keyboard shortcuts, and supports the launching of the >>> accessibility framework at startup etc. As to using the LXDE GUI with >>> Orca etc, I think the biggest problem here is the use of python. The >> >> Hmm, do you think we should replace orca in all desktop environments by >> a c-implementation? >> Slow performance is not related to lxde only. Orca isn't faster in gnome >> as well so I can't understand what you want to say here. >> >> Regarding lxde a11y: >> I played a bit with the components in the past. >> The most dificult problem was to run at-spi-registryd before the first >> gtk app starts. >> >> The application menu works (ctrl+esc). >> pcmanfm in desktopmode doesn't read anything. >> pcmanfm started in filemanager mode works when changing to details in >> menu->view. >> >> The buttons/panels are not accessible on the desktop because of missing >> keyboard shortcuts afaik. >> HTH. >> Halim >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> -- >> Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list >> Ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility >> >> >> End of Ubuntu-accessibility Digest, Vol 67, Issue 2 >> *************************************************** >> > > -- > Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list > Ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility From alex.midence at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 21:55:44 2011 From: alex.midence at gmail.com (Alex Midence) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 16:55:44 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Lubuntu and Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Meant to send this to the entire list but didn't realize it did not go through. Thans. Alex M ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Alex Midence Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 16:54:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility To: frederik.gladhorn at nokia.com Hi, Frederik, Here is one of the resources that led me to believe that iaccessible2 was a feasible accessibility api for Linux applications and applications used to make others accessible in Linux to rely upon: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/accessibility/iaccessible2/overview If it can not be used in Linux, why is it supported by the Linux Foundation? Alex M On 6/6/11, Alex Midence wrote: > Thanks for clearing that up. I was always quite mystified as to why > it wasn't used. I found all sorts of postings as to why it was a bad > idea but never anything quite so informative as to just why At-Spi was > so preferable. I also found many postings when it first came out > touting it as a good solution for cross-platform accessibility which > is the reason I was under the impression that it could conceivably be > implemented in Linux and hadn't been done so due to people preference > and not because it was not feasible. > > Thanks again. > Alex M > > On 6/6/11, frederik.gladhorn at nokia.com wrote: >> Hi, >> >> On Jun 6, 2011, at 3:42 AM, ext Alex Midence wrote: >>> I seem to recall that Klaus Knopix is reputed to have had some success >>> making LXDE accessible in his Knopix Adrienne distribution. Perhaps >>> that is something that could be used as reference? As for >>> python-related slowness in Orca, I would tend to agree. C is just >>> faster than Python. Interpreted languages are going to require far >>> more memory and resources than compiled ones in many cases. >>> >>> Actually, a saner thing would be an implementation of orca written in >>> both C or c++ and Python. The low-level code in c and the more >>> scriptable areas in Python. This is what NVDA's devs did and it's a >>> slighning fast screen reader on a bloated system like Windows. While >>> we're wishing, I'll go ahead and wish for iaccessible2 support instead >>> of complete and exclusive reliance on at-spi/at-spi2 so that more >>> widget toolkits might become accessible since some of them do support >>> iaccessible2 but not at-spi. >> >> the APIs of IAccessible2 and at-spi2 are very similar. >> Their big difference is the implementation. IAccessible2 (based on MSAA) >> uses Windows COM for inter process communication. >> at-spi2 uses dbus. >> >> That means having IAccessible2 on Linux doesn't make much sense. And >> implementing it using DBus you end up with exactly at-spi2. >> Please don't propose solutions that simply don't match the problem. >> >> Instead of speculating about performance we should use profiling tools to >> see where the performance lags. >> I suspect DBus is a large part of it. And the way we use DBus is used is >> another big issue. Python may or may not play a role. >> >> Greetings, >> Frederik >> >> >>> I'm on a orle here so, I'll keep >>> wishing. I want a faster, lag-free web browsing experience with >>> something akin to an off screen model, navigation by element list. >>> and an expanded list of elements by which one can navigate like div >>> and span. The inferior browsing experience in Linux is the only >>> thing that keeps me going back to windows. >>> >>> Just my two cents, >>> Alex >>> >>> >>> >>> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 09:49:37 +0200 >>> From: Halim Sahin >>> To: ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com >>> Subject: Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility >>>> Message-ID: <20110604074937.GA25814 at gentoo.local> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> On Di, Mai 24, 2011 at 01:14:32 +1000, Luke Yelavich wrote: >>>>> The first thing is making sure LXDE is actually accessible, i.e make >>>>> sure it has keyboard shortcuts, and supports the launching of the >>>>> accessibility framework at startup etc. As to using the LXDE GUI with >>>>> Orca etc, I think the biggest problem here is the use of python. The >>>> >>>> Hmm, do you think we should replace orca in all desktop environments by >>>> a c-implementation? >>>> Slow performance is not related to lxde only. Orca isn't faster in >>>> gnome >>>> as well so I can't understand what you want to say here. >>>> >>>> Regarding lxde a11y: >>>> I played a bit with the components in the past. >>>> The most dificult problem was to run at-spi-registryd before the first >>>> gtk app starts. >>>> >>>> The application menu works (ctrl+esc). >>>> pcmanfm in desktopmode doesn't read anything. >>>> pcmanfm started in filemanager mode works when changing to details in >>>> menu->view. >>>> >>>> The buttons/panels are not accessible on the desktop because of missing >>>> keyboard shortcuts afaik. >>>> HTH. >>>> Halim >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list >>>> Ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com >>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility >>>> >>>> >>>> End of Ubuntu-accessibility Digest, Vol 67, Issue 2 >>>> *************************************************** >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list >>> Ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com >>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility >> >> > From frederik.gladhorn at nokia.com Mon Jun 6 22:36:57 2011 From: frederik.gladhorn at nokia.com (frederik.gladhorn at nokia.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 22:36:57 +0000 Subject: iaccessible2 and linux (was Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I guess IBM needed a neutral place to dump the interface definitions. In theory it would be possible to implement iaccessible2 on linux, but the inter process communication of it would have to be replaced and all that is hosted as interface files on the linux foundation website can only be used with windows tools. So just the abstract interfaces could be taken, but as I said before, it is quite close to what at-spi is. For a better browsing experience I guess that browsers/firefox and the orca people need to have better feedback what is needed. Firefox has a lot of custom stuff that on windows is using iaccessible2, so maybe there is something needed. I have not looked at qt webkit yet as that seems to be another big project. Cheers Frederik On Jun 6, 2011, at 11:55 PM, ext Alex Midence wrote: > Meant to send this to the entire list but didn't realize it did not go through. > > Thans. > Alex M > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Alex Midence > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 16:54:43 -0500 > Subject: Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility > To: frederik.gladhorn at nokia.com > > Hi, Frederik, > > Here is one of the resources that led me to believe that iaccessible2 > was a feasible accessibility api for Linux applications and > applications used to make others accessible in Linux to rely upon: > > http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/accessibility/iaccessible2/overview > > If it can not be used in Linux, why is it supported by the Linux Foundation? > Alex M > > On 6/6/11, Alex Midence wrote: >> Thanks for clearing that up. I was always quite mystified as to why >> it wasn't used. I found all sorts of postings as to why it was a bad >> idea but never anything quite so informative as to just why At-Spi was >> so preferable. I also found many postings when it first came out >> touting it as a good solution for cross-platform accessibility which >> is the reason I was under the impression that it could conceivably be >> implemented in Linux and hadn't been done so due to people preference >> and not because it was not feasible. >> >> Thanks again. >> Alex M >> >> On 6/6/11, frederik.gladhorn at nokia.com wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> On Jun 6, 2011, at 3:42 AM, ext Alex Midence wrote: >>>> I seem to recall that Klaus Knopix is reputed to have had some success >>>> making LXDE accessible in his Knopix Adrienne distribution. Perhaps >>>> that is something that could be used as reference? As for >>>> python-related slowness in Orca, I would tend to agree. C is just >>>> faster than Python. Interpreted languages are going to require far >>>> more memory and resources than compiled ones in many cases. >>>> >>>> Actually, a saner thing would be an implementation of orca written in >>>> both C or c++ and Python. The low-level code in c and the more >>>> scriptable areas in Python. This is what NVDA's devs did and it's a >>>> slighning fast screen reader on a bloated system like Windows. While >>>> we're wishing, I'll go ahead and wish for iaccessible2 support instead >>>> of complete and exclusive reliance on at-spi/at-spi2 so that more >>>> widget toolkits might become accessible since some of them do support >>>> iaccessible2 but not at-spi. >>> >>> the APIs of IAccessible2 and at-spi2 are very similar. >>> Their big difference is the implementation. IAccessible2 (based on MSAA) >>> uses Windows COM for inter process communication. >>> at-spi2 uses dbus. >>> >>> That means having IAccessible2 on Linux doesn't make much sense. And >>> implementing it using DBus you end up with exactly at-spi2. >>> Please don't propose solutions that simply don't match the problem. >>> >>> Instead of speculating about performance we should use profiling tools to >>> see where the performance lags. >>> I suspect DBus is a large part of it. And the way we use DBus is used is >>> another big issue. Python may or may not play a role. >>> >>> Greetings, >>> Frederik >>> >>> >>>> I'm on a orle here so, I'll keep >>>> wishing. I want a faster, lag-free web browsing experience with >>>> something akin to an off screen model, navigation by element list. >>>> and an expanded list of elements by which one can navigate like div >>>> and span. The inferior browsing experience in Linux is the only >>>> thing that keeps me going back to windows. >>>> >>>> Just my two cents, >>>> Alex >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 09:49:37 +0200 >>>> From: Halim Sahin >>>> To: ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com >>>> Subject: Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility >>>>> Message-ID: <20110604074937.GA25814 at gentoo.local> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> On Di, Mai 24, 2011 at 01:14:32 +1000, Luke Yelavich wrote: >>>>>> The first thing is making sure LXDE is actually accessible, i.e make >>>>>> sure it has keyboard shortcuts, and supports the launching of the >>>>>> accessibility framework at startup etc. As to using the LXDE GUI with >>>>>> Orca etc, I think the biggest problem here is the use of python. The >>>>> >>>>> Hmm, do you think we should replace orca in all desktop environments by >>>>> a c-implementation? >>>>> Slow performance is not related to lxde only. Orca isn't faster in >>>>> gnome >>>>> as well so I can't understand what you want to say here. >>>>> >>>>> Regarding lxde a11y: >>>>> I played a bit with the components in the past. >>>>> The most dificult problem was to run at-spi-registryd before the first >>>>> gtk app starts. >>>>> >>>>> The application menu works (ctrl+esc). >>>>> pcmanfm in desktopmode doesn't read anything. >>>>> pcmanfm started in filemanager mode works when changing to details in >>>>> menu->view. >>>>> >>>>> The buttons/panels are not accessible on the desktop because of missing >>>>> keyboard shortcuts afaik. >>>>> HTH. >>>>> Halim >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list >>>>> Ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com >>>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> End of Ubuntu-accessibility Digest, Vol 67, Issue 2 >>>>> *************************************************** >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list >>>> Ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com >>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility >>> >>> >> > > -- > Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list > Ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility From isaac at porat.me.uk Tue Jun 7 01:36:54 2011 From: isaac at porat.me.uk (Isaac Porat) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2011 02:36:54 +0100 Subject: iaccessible2 and linux (was Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DED80B6.7040200@porat.me.uk> Hi I was asking the same question a couple of years ago. My understanding after looking a bit into the issue is that IBM consulted at the time key people in accessibility in Linux (there still some minutes of these meetings) to make both interfaces as close as possible which as indicated it is somewhat the case. Reading between the lines, iAccessible2 was not accepted for Linux because of both companies and Linux vs Windows politics. the interfaces are close but not the same. At the time perhaps if somebody on the Linux side took a more favourable approach the communication layer in iAccessible2 implementations would have been properly separated. As it happened my understanding from Bil Cox who looked at the issue in more details in the Windows world the implementation and communication layers can be mixed with vendors who want to support both Windows and Linux so in practice they need to a good extend maintain two separate stacks and with the ratio of Windows to Linux users of something like 90 to 1 Linux support not suprisingly is always behind. So now it is probably too late to separate the layers for the large application as it would involve too much work. An opportunity lost. Like Alex, the browsing experience is the main reason I use mainly Windows. And I never understood why the off screen model is not adopted in Orca (probably the only screen reader taking this approach) yes there is sometimes the issue of synchronization with sighted users but it is in my opinion a price worth paying for speed and then there is of course the issue of inter processes as opposed to binary interface communication which is a lot faster in Windows. In addition, I was told that some screen readers take a pointer to the DOM tree which they are not suppose to do probably not wise for security but it is very fast. Regards Isaac Previous message... On 06/06/2011 23:36, frederik.gladhorn at nokia.com wrote: > I guess IBM needed a neutral place to dump the interface definitions. > In theory it would be possible to implement iaccessible2 on linux, but the inter process communication of it would have to be replaced and all that is hosted as interface files on the linux foundation website can only be used with windows tools. > So just the abstract interfaces could be taken, but as I said before, it is quite close to what at-spi is. > For a better browsing experience I guess that browsers/firefox and the orca people need to have better feedback what is needed. Firefox has a lot of custom stuff that on windows is using iaccessible2, so maybe there is something needed. > I have not looked at qt webkit yet as that seems to be another big project. > > Cheers > Frederik > > On Jun 6, 2011, at 11:55 PM, ext Alex Midence wrote: > >> Meant to send this to the entire list but didn't realize it did not go through. >> >> Thans. >> Alex M >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Alex Midence >> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 16:54:43 -0500 >> Subject: Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility >> To: frederik.gladhorn at nokia.com >> >> Hi, Frederik, >> >> Here is one of the resources that led me to believe that iaccessible2 >> was a feasible accessibility api for Linux applications and >> applications used to make others accessible in Linux to rely upon: >> >> http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/accessibility/iaccessible2/overview >> >> If it can not be used in Linux, why is it supported by the Linux Foundation? >> Alex M >> >> On 6/6/11, Alex Midence wrote: >>> Thanks for clearing that up. I was always quite mystified as to why >>> it wasn't used. I found all sorts of postings as to why it was a bad >>> idea but never anything quite so informative as to just why At-Spi was >>> so preferable. I also found many postings when it first came out >>> touting it as a good solution for cross-platform accessibility which >>> is the reason I was under the impression that it could conceivably be >>> implemented in Linux and hadn't been done so due to people preference >>> and not because it was not feasible. >>> >>> Thanks again. >>> Alex M >>> >>> On 6/6/11, frederik.gladhorn at nokia.com wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> On Jun 6, 2011, at 3:42 AM, ext Alex Midence wrote: >>>>> I seem to recall that Klaus Knopix is reputed to have had some success >>>>> making LXDE accessible in his Knopix Adrienne distribution. Perhaps >>>>> that is something that could be used as reference? As for >>>>> python-related slowness in Orca, I would tend to agree. C is just >>>>> faster than Python. Interpreted languages are going to require far >>>>> more memory and resources than compiled ones in many cases. >>>>> >>>>> Actually, a saner thing would be an implementation of orca written in >>>>> both C or c++ and Python. The low-level code in c and the more >>>>> scriptable areas in Python. This is what NVDA's devs did and it's a >>>>> slighning fast screen reader on a bloated system like Windows. While >>>>> we're wishing, I'll go ahead and wish for iaccessible2 support instead >>>>> of complete and exclusive reliance on at-spi/at-spi2 so that more >>>>> widget toolkits might become accessible since some of them do support >>>>> iaccessible2 but not at-spi. >>>> the APIs of IAccessible2 and at-spi2 are very similar. >>>> Their big difference is the implementation. IAccessible2 (based on MSAA) >>>> uses Windows COM for inter process communication. >>>> at-spi2 uses dbus. >>>> >>>> That means having IAccessible2 on Linux doesn't make much sense. And >>>> implementing it using DBus you end up with exactly at-spi2. >>>> Please don't propose solutions that simply don't match the problem. >>>> >>>> Instead of speculating about performance we should use profiling tools to >>>> see where the performance lags. >>>> I suspect DBus is a large part of it. And the way we use DBus is used is >>>> another big issue. Python may or may not play a role. >>>> >>>> Greetings, >>>> Frederik >>>> >>>> >>>>> I'm on a orle here so, I'll keep >>>>> wishing. I want a faster, lag-free web browsing experience with >>>>> something akin to an off screen model, navigation by element list. >>>>> and an expanded list of elements by which one can navigate like div >>>>> and span. The inferior browsing experience in Linux is the only >>>>> thing that keeps me going back to windows. >>>>> >>>>> Just my two cents, >>>>> Alex >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 09:49:37 +0200 >>>>> From: Halim Sahin >>>>> To: ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com >>>>> Subject: Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility >>>>>> Message-ID:<20110604074937.GA25814 at gentoo.local> >>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> On Di, Mai 24, 2011 at 01:14:32 +1000, Luke Yelavich wrote: >>>>>>> The first thing is making sure LXDE is actually accessible, i.e make >>>>>>> sure it has keyboard shortcuts, and supports the launching of the >>>>>>> accessibility framework at startup etc. As to using the LXDE GUI with >>>>>>> Orca etc, I think the biggest problem here is the use of python. The >>>>>> Hmm, do you think we should replace orca in all desktop environments by >>>>>> a c-implementation? >>>>>> Slow performance is not related to lxde only. Orca isn't faster in >>>>>> gnome >>>>>> as well so I can't understand what you want to say here. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regarding lxde a11y: >>>>>> I played a bit with the components in the past. >>>>>> The most dificult problem was to run at-spi-registryd before the first >>>>>> gtk app starts. >>>>>> >>>>>> The application menu works (ctrl+esc). >>>>>> pcmanfm in desktopmode doesn't read anything. >>>>>> pcmanfm started in filemanager mode works when changing to details in >>>>>> menu->view. >>>>>> >>>>>> The buttons/panels are not accessible on the desktop because of missing >>>>>> keyboard shortcuts afaik. >>>>>> HTH. >>>>>> Halim >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list >>>>>> Ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com >>>>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> End of Ubuntu-accessibility Digest, Vol 67, Issue 2 >>>>>> *************************************************** >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list >>>>> Ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com >>>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility >>>> >> -- >> Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list >> Ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility > From apinheiro at igalia.com Tue Jun 7 12:40:15 2011 From: apinheiro at igalia.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Pi=F1eiro?=) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2011 14:40:15 +0200 Subject: Lubuntu and Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DEE1C2F.4020907@igalia.com> On 06/06/2011 03:42 AM, Alex Midence wrote: > I seem to recall that Klaus Knopix is reputed to have had some success > making LXDE accessible in his Knopix Adrienne distribution. Perhaps > that is something that could be used as reference? As for > python-related slowness in Orca, I would tend to agree. C is just > faster than Python. Interpreted languages are going to require far > more memory and resources than compiled ones in many cases. > > Actually, a saner thing would be an implementation of orca written in > both C or c++ and Python. The low-level code in c and the more > scriptable areas in Python. Although Frederik already mentioned that a proper profile is required, and that most of the performance problems on Linux are related with DBUS, I want to add some comments. For what it worths, right now there are a running project in order to improve Orca performance: https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Opportunities/OrcaPerformance AFAIK, as part of this project, one thing to investigate is if it worth to move part of current Orca implementation to C in order to improve performance (as IMHO, a full C re-implementation doesn't worth it). Caribou recently did something similar. BR -- Alejandro Piñeiro Iglesias (API) (apinheiro at igalia.com) From apinheiro at igalia.com Tue Jun 7 12:47:02 2011 From: apinheiro at igalia.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Pi=F1eiro?=) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2011 14:47:02 +0200 Subject: iaccessible2 and linux (was Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility) In-Reply-To: <4DED80B6.7040200@porat.me.uk> References: <4DED80B6.7040200@porat.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DEE1DC6.2010009@igalia.com> On 06/07/2011 03:36 AM, Isaac Porat wrote: > Hi > > I was asking the same question a couple of years ago. My > understanding after looking a bit into the issue is that IBM consulted > at the time key people in accessibility in Linux (there still some > minutes of these meetings) to make both interfaces as close as > possible which as indicated it is somewhat the case. > > Reading between the lines, iAccessible2 was not accepted for Linux > because of both companies and Linux vs Windows politics. the > interfaces are close but not the same. At the time perhaps if > somebody on the Linux side took a more favourable approach the > communication layer in iAccessible2 implementations would have been > properly separated. As it happened my understanding from Bil Cox who > looked at the issue in more details in the Windows world the > implementation and communication layers can be mixed with vendors who > want to support both Windows and Linux so in practice they need to a > good extend maintain two separate stacks and with the ratio of Windows > to Linux users of something like 90 to 1 Linux support not suprisingly > is always behind. It is true that there are people that thinks that moving iAccessible2 to Linux should be the path. But AFAIK, the reason of why it wasn't done was not due politics. It was in order to avoid to "reinvent the wheel". Linux had already a working accessible interface, ATK, implemented by a lot of actors on Linux (gtk, firefox, etc). So moving to iAccessible2 means to change all in order to move to a (as already said) really similar technology, with similar features. But I also understand that having "just one thing" would have a lot of advantages. BTW: AFAIK, this is not "one is better that two". AFAIK MacOS doesn't use ATK or Ia2: http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Accessibility/Conceptual/AccessibilityMacOSX/OSXAXModel/OSXAXmodel.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40001078-CH208-TPXREF101 Or I'm wrong? BR -- Alejandro Piñeiro Iglesias (API) (apinheiro at igalia.com) From isaac at porat.me.uk Sun Jun 12 06:40:02 2011 From: isaac at porat.me.uk (Isaac Porat) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 07:40:02 +0100 Subject: iaccessible2 and linux (was Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility) In-Reply-To: <4DEE1DC6.2010009@igalia.com> References: <4DED80B6.7040200@porat.me.uk> <4DEE1DC6.2010009@igalia.com> Message-ID: <4DF45F42.7010009@porat.me.uk> Hi My comments were not a criticism of at-spi but rather the need were possible to unify accessibilities standard across platforms for the simple reason that if software vendors have to worry about one accessibility stack it is better than two or three, as Linux as very small user based it is always left behind by the main vendors. In Windows there is MSAA which is a subset of both iAccessible2 and Microsoft own UI automation. There is also Java accessibility standard which is only supported (and even this is not great) by NVDA. This applies to Swing components, IBM Java SWT components work great in Windows anybody using Eclipse in Windows will know how accessible it is (I believe it is not bad in Linux either but not tried it recently), it relies on the native gui components for the OS which is a great approach. So more than one standard can co-exist as time moves on there is a need for new features and compatibility. I heard various stories on the feasibility of implementing iAccessible2 in Linux as well including the possibility of building a bridge to at-spi but I know very little about either. Anyway both myself and Bill Cox are very interested in cross platform accessibility solutions and working on a non related system right now. It is our desire to look at this issue at some stage in the not too distant future and we will keep you posted and seek other developers who might be interested. Regards Isaac On 07/06/2011 13:47, Piñeiro wrote: > On 06/07/2011 03:36 AM, Isaac Porat wrote: >> Hi >> >> I was asking the same question a couple of years ago. My >> understanding after looking a bit into the issue is that IBM >> consulted at the time key people in accessibility in Linux (there >> still some minutes of these meetings) to make both interfaces as >> close as possible which as indicated it is somewhat the case. >> >> Reading between the lines, iAccessible2 was not accepted for Linux >> because of both companies and Linux vs Windows politics. the >> interfaces are close but not the same. At the time perhaps if >> somebody on the Linux side took a more favourable approach the >> communication layer in iAccessible2 implementations would have been >> properly separated. As it happened my understanding from Bil Cox who >> looked at the issue in more details in the Windows world the >> implementation and communication layers can be mixed with vendors who >> want to support both Windows and Linux so in practice they need to a >> good extend maintain two separate stacks and with the ratio of >> Windows to Linux users of something like 90 to 1 Linux support not >> suprisingly is always behind. > > It is true that there are people that thinks that moving iAccessible2 > to Linux should be the path. But AFAIK, the reason of why it wasn't > done was not due politics. It was in order to avoid to "reinvent the > wheel". Linux had already a working accessible interface, ATK, > implemented by a lot of actors on Linux (gtk, firefox, etc). So moving > to iAccessible2 means to change all in order to move to a (as already > said) really similar technology, with similar features. > > But I also understand that having "just one thing" would have a lot of > advantages. > > BTW: AFAIK, this is not "one is better that two". AFAIK MacOS doesn't > use ATK or Ia2: > http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Accessibility/Conceptual/AccessibilityMacOSX/OSXAXModel/OSXAXmodel.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40001078-CH208-TPXREF101 > > > Or I'm wrong? > > BR > From esj at harvee.org Sun Jun 12 11:01:20 2011 From: esj at harvee.org (Eric S. Johansson) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 07:01:20 -0400 Subject: iaccessible2 and linux (was Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility) In-Reply-To: <4DF45F42.7010009@porat.me.uk> References: <4DED80B6.7040200@porat.me.uk> <4DEE1DC6.2010009@igalia.com> <4DF45F42.7010009@porat.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DF49C80.2090905@harvee.org> On 6/12/2011 2:40 AM, Isaac Porat wrote: > Hi > > My comments were not a criticism of at-spi but rather the need were possible > to unify accessibilities standard across platforms for the simple reason that > if software vendors have to worry about one accessibility stack it is better > than two or three, as Linux as very small user based it is always left behind > by the main vendors. in my opinion, any criticism of the current accessibility world should not be focused on just cross platform but on how they don't really meet the needs of the disabled, application developers, or accessibility interface developers. I start from the principle that accessibility is defined by what the user needs, not what the application but accessibility interface vendor is willing to give. For example, nuance doesn't give me what I need (a speech user interface was sufficient discoverability) therefore, they don't provide sufficient accessibility. At the same time, I a assert that individual is responsible for their own accessibility because what the user needs depends on what they do and the nature of their disability. There's no way that any application or accessibility vendor can possibly provide that level of customization at a price that individual can afford. The second starting point is that trying to replicate a GUI or extract information from a GUI is a failed proposition. Speech user interfaces (spoken or heard) have entirely different structure. A blind person using a web application should here a small number of things essential to operating the interface and not all of the junk around the application unless they ask for it. A spoken interface is a wide and shallow interface where control the scope makes the same or similar command do different things. My personal objection to most of the current work is that they seem to ignore speech recognition entirely or so cripple the interface as to be useless for anything but direct text dictation in a very limited way. The current accessibility tool kits are replicating the same mistakes I've seen inaccessibility environments since I've been disabled. I think a better solution, is for the application to export the data and operations available via a GUI and accessibility tool to reveal all of its controls and data so that a customizable framework can drive both application and accessibility tool to provide the accessibility interface necessary for the user. the model I propose reduces the cost for an applications developer to provide accessibility, makes it possible to split boundaries between which machine has the accessibility device, and which machine has the application as well as applications within browsers. This model also makes accessibility cheaper, easier to validate, customize, and support than the current models. this is still theoretical as I don't have any hands with which to write code. I wouldn't turn away a volunteer to help me with making a prototype. the basic idea is sound enough that others I have bounced it off of think it's worth exploring. All I need is someone with hands. --- eric From themuso at ubuntu.com Wed Jun 15 04:50:23 2011 From: themuso at ubuntu.com (Luke Yelavich) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 14:50:23 +1000 Subject: Time for another meeting, time suggestions wanted. Message-ID: <20110615045023.GA11497@strigy.yelavich.home> Hi all, Whilst much was discussed at UDS, and much is already under way for oneiric, there hasn't been much discussion about the community side of accessibility work, and I must say I haven't really given any updates on the development front. Thus I think its time for another accessibility team meeting. I think we stuck to a particular time every 2 or so weeks, but I have forgotten what that is, and I currently have too many things swapped into memory to try and find it, and make sure I don't lose something that still needs to be swapped to disk, so please suggest times/dates. I would like to have a meeting within the next week or so i possible, before I go to the Oneiric Rally. Suggestions welcome, I'm happy to try and make most times, except for weekends of course. :) Luke From mj at mjw.se Wed Jun 15 23:34:50 2011 From: mj at mjw.se (mattias) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 01:34:50 +0200 Subject: daisy player Message-ID: <4DF9419A.2010303@mjw.se> exist one? ubunu natty 64 bit From samuel.thibault at ens-lyon.org Wed Jun 15 23:40:32 2011 From: samuel.thibault at ens-lyon.org (Samuel Thibault) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 01:40:32 +0200 Subject: daisy player In-Reply-To: <4DF9419A.2010303@mjw.se> References: <4DF9419A.2010303@mjw.se> Message-ID: <20110615234032.GO4935@const.famille.thibault.fr> mattias, le Thu 16 Jun 2011 01:34:50 +0200, a écrit : > exist one? > ubunu natty 64 bit One has been added to oneiric, called daisy-player. The dependencies are relaxed enough that you should be able to install it without having to upgrade your Ubuntu system at all. Samuel From mj at mjw.se Thu Jun 16 00:45:16 2011 From: mj at mjw.se (mattias) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 02:45:16 +0200 Subject: mbrola Message-ID: <4DF9521C.9040808@mjw.se> anyone get mbrola work in ubuntu natty with speech-dispatcher i only get unable to connect to jack server or something From linuxx64.bashsh at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 00:53:44 2011 From: linuxx64.bashsh at gmail.com (Alex H.) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:53:44 -0400 Subject: mbrola In-Reply-To: <4DF9521C.9040808@mjw.se> References: <4DF9521C.9040808@mjw.se> Message-ID: <4DF95418.2090005@gmail.com> Hi, Probably pulseaudio being...well..pulseaudio. On 6/15/2011 8:45 PM, mattias wrote: > anyone get mbrola work in ubuntu natty with speech-dispatcher > i only get unable to connect to jack server or something > -- Sent via Thunderbird. From paul-leics at virginmedia.com Fri Jun 17 19:24:19 2011 From: paul-leics at virginmedia.com (Paul Hunt) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 20:24:19 +0100 Subject: Meeting Time Suggestion Message-ID: <4DFBA9E3.7050607@virginmedia.com> Hi, Meetings are usually on a Wednesday at 21:00 UTC are they not? How about this coming Wednesday (22 June) at 21:00 UTC Paul From mj at mjw.se Fri Jun 17 19:49:42 2011 From: mj at mjw.se (mattias) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 21:49:42 +0200 Subject: orca unstable? Message-ID: <4DFBAFD6.3050707@mjw.se> have anyone observed it orca sometimes chraches so you must start it again From samuel.thibault at ens-lyon.org Sun Jun 19 20:05:13 2011 From: samuel.thibault at ens-lyon.org (Samuel Thibault) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 22:05:13 +0200 Subject: LSM from 9th to 14th july 2011 Message-ID: <20110619200513.GG27884@const.famille.thibault.fr> Hello, The Libre Software Meeting (LSM, RMLL) will take place from 9th to 14th july 2011 in Strasbourg. All the information are available on http://rmll.info For people who would like lost-cost accomodation, reservations are now open. Reservation is recommended anyway, to get a badge and Internet access. Samuel From cheri703 at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 02:53:38 2011 From: cheri703 at gmail.com (Cheri Francis) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 22:53:38 -0400 Subject: Meeting Time Suggestion In-Reply-To: <4DFBA9E3.7050607@virginmedia.com> References: <4DFBA9E3.7050607@virginmedia.com> Message-ID: This date/time would work for me. -Cheri Francis On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Paul Hunt wrote: > Hi, > > Meetings are usually on a Wednesday at 21:00 UTC are they not? > > How about this coming Wednesday (22 June) at 21:00 UTC > > Paul > > -- > Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list > Ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility > From alan.bell at theopenlearningcentre.com Mon Jun 20 06:07:11 2011 From: alan.bell at theopenlearningcentre.com (Alan Bell) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 07:07:11 +0100 Subject: Meeting Time Suggestion In-Reply-To: References: <4DFBA9E3.7050607@virginmedia.com> Message-ID: <4DFEE38F.6030703@theopenlearningcentre.com> good for me too. Alan. On 20/06/11 03:53, Cheri Francis wrote: > This date/time would work for me. > > -Cheri Francis > > On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Paul Hunt wrote: > From pstowe at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 13:38:50 2011 From: pstowe at gmail.com (Penelope Stowe) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 09:38:50 -0400 Subject: Meeting Time Suggestion In-Reply-To: <4DFBA9E3.7050607@virginmedia.com> References: <4DFBA9E3.7050607@virginmedia.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Paul Hunt wrote: > Hi, > > Meetings are usually on a Wednesday at 21:00 UTC are they not? > > How about this coming Wednesday (22 June) at 21:00 UTC > > Paul > Works for me! Also, sorry to everyone that I've not been around more recently. I'm going through some difficult health stuff which is kinda distracting from anything else. ~Penelope From cjk at teamcharliesangels.com Mon Jun 20 13:59:03 2011 From: cjk at teamcharliesangels.com (Charlie Kravetz) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 07:59:03 -0600 Subject: Meeting Time Suggestion In-Reply-To: <4DFBA9E3.7050607@virginmedia.com> References: <4DFBA9E3.7050607@virginmedia.com> Message-ID: <20110620075903.07fc9056@teamcharliesangels.com> On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 20:24:19 +0100 Paul Hunt wrote: > Hi, > > Meetings are usually on a Wednesday at 21:00 UTC are they not? > > How about this coming Wednesday (22 June) at 21:00 UTC > > Paul > Works for me. Can you update the agenda for this meeting? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda -- Charlie Kravetz Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/] Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com] From pstowe at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 19:21:20 2011 From: pstowe at gmail.com (Penelope Stowe) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:21:20 -0400 Subject: Reminder Meeting Today (June 22, 2011) at 21:00 UTC Message-ID: Hi! Sorry this reminder is so late, I was having trouble with my e-mail earlier. There is a meeting today in #ubuntu-accessibility at 21:00 UTC. Agenda is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda Thanks! Penelope From tony.sales at rncb.ac.uk Mon Jun 27 18:14:23 2011 From: tony.sales at rncb.ac.uk (Tony Sales) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:14:23 +0000 Subject: Vinux 3.2 Released! Message-ID: <58C326E7D5A7B84190C31DE21721FF1D269AA743@MAIL1.rncb.ac.uk> I am happy to announce the release of Vinux 3.2 based on Ubuntu 11.04 - this is a cutting edge release featuring the latest versions of Orca (3.1.2-xdesktop) and Speech-Dispatcher (0.8~2784+13~maverick1) from the daily build repos. This version is available as CD and DVD in both 32 and 64 bit. The DVD version provides the same software as the CD but with the addition of libreoffice and some non-free multimedia codecs etc. The default desktop is Classic Gnome 2.x but Unity is available from the GDM login screen if your video card supports 3D. This release includes the Pico TTS voices in addition to Espeak, the Epiphany Internet Browser and built-in keybindings to quickly organise multiple windows with x-tile. It also features some new packages including Orca-Teacher, Talking Clock and CDBurn. This version also plays a system bell when the isolinux boot screen appears allowing you to select different boot options including an experimental 'toram' mode. http://vinux.green-oval.net/Vinux-3.2-i386-CD.iso Size: 665MB md5sum: 9c06b253f6826a03265d4b79e87c7b 7d Vinux-3.2-i386-CD.iso http://vinuxproject.org/Downloads/V3.2/Vinux-3.2-amd64-CD.iso Size: 689MB md5sum: ed4931b944b8b4e0b142dff46590a17c Vinux-3.2-amd64-CD.iso http://vinuxproject.org/Downloads/V3.2/Vinux-3.2-i386-DVD.iso Size: 1GB md5sum: 6ff7a4cc10aab7c7ecf4bb1fe9cfef37 Vinux-3.2-i386-DVD.iso http://vinux.green-oval.net/Vinux-3.2-amd64-DVD.iso Size: 967MB md5sum: a63c1a6c27195be76bd13d1f1d3d7923 Vinux-3.2-amd64-DVD.iso Additional Release Information for the Vinux Website etc. There is also a Vinux 3.2 PLUS edition which features lots of extra packages for partially sighted users: http://vinuxproject.org/Downloads/V3.2/Vinux-3.2-i386-PLUS.iso Size 2.6GB f015779d78ced8b1b3edf668e1809d84 http://vinux.green-oval.net/Vinux-3.2-amd64-PLUS.iso Size: 2.7GB md5sum: 5bb475310d1bd877bfd2da584d51f998 I have managed to fit more text tools on the CD edition including: sox gpm screen splitvt figlet cmatrix txt2html html2text pdf2svg pstotext units mc trash-cli vrms dict sc htop linuxinfo w3m elinks-lite urlview finch axel calcurse tdl. Known Bugs: Selecting the Cicero speech synth will crash Orca and you will have to run: orca -t to reset everything back to the way it was. So do not select Cicero. The x-tile keybinding to 'quad' tile open windows was set to 'win+alt+v' by accident - to correct this open the keyboard shortcuts manager and re-assign it to 'win+alt+q' - then the vertical tile option will work as well (win+alt+v). From david at rustytelephone.net Tue Jun 28 00:42:06 2011 From: david at rustytelephone.net (David Sexton) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 06:12:06 +0530 Subject: Vinux 3.2 Released! In-Reply-To: <58C326E7D5A7B84190C31DE21721FF1D269AA743@MAIL1.rncb.ac.uk> References: <58C326E7D5A7B84190C31DE21721FF1D269AA743@MAIL1.rncb.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4E09235E.9070105@rustytelephone.net> Great work! Is there a more accurate way to download this other than http? torrent for example. What about a USB edition? David David Sexton +91 9400223351 On 6/27/2011 11:44 PM, Tony Sales wrote: > I am happy to announce the release of Vinux 3.2 based on Ubuntu 11.04 - this is a cutting edge release featuring the latest versions of Orca (3.1.2-xdesktop) and Speech-Dispatcher (0.8~2784+13~maverick1) from the daily build repos. This version is available as CD and DVD in both 32 and 64 bit. The DVD version provides the same software as the CD but with the addition of libreoffice and some non-free multimedia codecs etc. The default desktop is Classic Gnome 2.x but Unity is available from the GDM login screen if your video card supports 3D. This release includes the Pico TTS voices in addition to Espeak, the Epiphany Internet Browser and built-in keybindings to quickly organise multiple windows with x-tile. It also features some new packages including Orca-Teacher, Talking Clock and CDBurn. This version also plays a system bell when the isolinux boot screen appears allowing you to select different boot options including an experimental 'toram' mode. > > http://vinux.green-oval.net/Vinux-3.2-i386-CD.iso > Size: 665MB > md5sum: 9c06b253f6826a03265d4b79e87c7b > 7d Vinux-3.2-i386-CD.iso > > http://vinuxproject.org/Downloads/V3.2/Vinux-3.2-amd64-CD.iso > Size: 689MB > md5sum: ed4931b944b8b4e0b142dff46590a17c Vinux-3.2-amd64-CD.iso > > http://vinuxproject.org/Downloads/V3.2/Vinux-3.2-i386-DVD.iso > Size: 1GB > md5sum: 6ff7a4cc10aab7c7ecf4bb1fe9cfef37 Vinux-3.2-i386-DVD.iso > > http://vinux.green-oval.net/Vinux-3.2-amd64-DVD.iso > Size: 967MB > md5sum: a63c1a6c27195be76bd13d1f1d3d7923 Vinux-3.2-amd64-DVD.iso > > > Additional Release Information for the Vinux Website etc. > > There is also a Vinux 3.2 PLUS edition which features lots of extra packages for partially sighted users: > > http://vinuxproject.org/Downloads/V3.2/Vinux-3.2-i386-PLUS.iso > Size 2.6GB > f015779d78ced8b1b3edf668e1809d84 > > http://vinux.green-oval.net/Vinux-3.2-amd64-PLUS.iso > Size: 2.7GB > md5sum: 5bb475310d1bd877bfd2da584d51f998 > > I have managed to fit more text tools on the CD edition including: sox gpm screen splitvt figlet cmatrix txt2html html2text pdf2svg pstotext units mc trash-cli vrms dict sc htop linuxinfo w3m elinks-lite urlview finch axel calcurse tdl. > > Known Bugs: > > Selecting the Cicero speech synth will crash Orca and you will have to run: orca -t to reset everything back to the way it was. So do not select Cicero. > > The x-tile keybinding to 'quad' tile open windows was set to 'win+alt+v' by accident - to correct this open the keyboard shortcuts manager and re-assign it to 'win+alt+q' - then the vertical tile option will work as well (win+alt+v). > From jdashiel at shellworld.net Tue Jun 28 07:22:30 2011 From: jdashiel at shellworld.net (Jude DaShiell) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 03:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vinux 3.2 Released! In-Reply-To: <4E09235E.9070105@rustytelephone.net> References: <58C326E7D5A7B84190C31DE21721FF1D269AA743@MAIL1.rncb.ac.uk> <4E09235E.9070105@rustytelephone.net> Message-ID: The http isn't your problem here in terms of accuracy. Your problem is that you do not use the correct tool to do the download with http. When you want accuracy with http, you properly use wget for downloads and its sibling wput for uploads. A command like:On Tue, 28 Jun 2011, David Sexton wrote: wget -bc will do an accurate download for you and you can check its progress too. The -b switch says to make a log file and the first one that is made will be wget-log. The -c switch says if the download breaks for whatever reason resume the download. The wget utility checks to make sure when the file is downloaded you get every byte that's on the other end and doesn't quit until it is satisfied you got an exact copy. Let's talk about that log file since making it does a couple things for you. First, all output goes to the log file which means you can use the computer to do other things while the download continues in the background. Second, to check progress of file download a command like: wc -l wget-log will return the number of lines in wget-log. Repeating that command should show an increasing line number as the file is download but will stop when the file is completed. When you think it has stopped a command like: tail -4 wget-log shows you the last four lines in the wget-log file. Those four lines will contain a message that file download is saved and at 100% when the file download is complete. You do want to delete wget-log with a command like: rm wget-log when download is complete since that way your next wget-log file isn't named wget-log.1 and the one after that isn't named wget-log.2 and so on. HTH. > Great work! > Is there a more accurate way to download this other than http? torrent for > example. > What about a USB edition? > David > > David Sexton > +91 9400223351 > > > On 6/27/2011 11:44 PM, Tony Sales wrote: > > I am happy to announce the release of Vinux 3.2 based on Ubuntu 11.04 - this > > is a cutting edge release featuring the latest versions of Orca > > (3.1.2-xdesktop) and Speech-Dispatcher (0.8~2784+13~maverick1) from the > > daily build repos. This version is available as CD and DVD in both 32 and 64 > > bit. The DVD version provides the same software as the CD but with the > > addition of libreoffice and some non-free multimedia codecs etc. The default > > desktop is Classic Gnome 2.x but Unity is available from the GDM login > > screen if your video card supports 3D. This release includes the Pico TTS > > voices in addition to Espeak, the Epiphany Internet Browser and built-in > > keybindings to quickly organise multiple windows with x-tile. It also > > features some new packages including Orca-Teacher, Talking Clock and CDBurn. > > This version also plays a system bell when the isolinux boot screen appears > > allowing you to select different boot options including an experimental > > 'toram' mode. > > > > http://vinux.green-oval.net/Vinux-3.2-i386-CD.iso > > Size: 665MB > > md5sum: 9c06b253f6826a03265d4b79e87c7b > > 7d Vinux-3.2-i386-CD.iso > > > > http://vinuxproject.org/Downloads/V3.2/Vinux-3.2-amd64-CD.iso > > Size: 689MB > > md5sum: ed4931b944b8b4e0b142dff46590a17c Vinux-3.2-amd64-CD.iso > > > > http://vinuxproject.org/Downloads/V3.2/Vinux-3.2-i386-DVD.iso > > Size: 1GB > > md5sum: 6ff7a4cc10aab7c7ecf4bb1fe9cfef37 Vinux-3.2-i386-DVD.iso > > > > http://vinux.green-oval.net/Vinux-3.2-amd64-DVD.iso > > Size: 967MB > > md5sum: a63c1a6c27195be76bd13d1f1d3d7923 Vinux-3.2-amd64-DVD.iso > > > > > > Additional Release Information for the Vinux Website etc. > > > > There is also a Vinux 3.2 PLUS edition which features lots of extra packages > > for partially sighted users: > > > > http://vinuxproject.org/Downloads/V3.2/Vinux-3.2-i386-PLUS.iso > > Size 2.6GB > > f015779d78ced8b1b3edf668e1809d84 > > > > http://vinux.green-oval.net/Vinux-3.2-amd64-PLUS.iso > > Size: 2.7GB > > md5sum: 5bb475310d1bd877bfd2da584d51f998 > > > > I have managed to fit more text tools on the CD edition including: sox gpm > > screen splitvt figlet cmatrix txt2html html2text pdf2svg pstotext units mc > > trash-cli vrms dict sc htop linuxinfo w3m elinks-lite urlview finch axel > > calcurse tdl. > > > > Known Bugs: > > > > Selecting the Cicero speech synth will crash Orca and you will have to run: > > orca -t to reset everything back to the way it was. So do not select Cicero. > > > > The x-tile keybinding to 'quad' tile open windows was set to 'win+alt+v' by > > accident - to correct this open the keyboard shortcuts manager and re-assign > > it to 'win+alt+q' - then the vertical tile option will work as well > > (win+alt+v). > > > > > From hitmanarky at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 13:31:20 2011 From: hitmanarky at gmail.com (Arky) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 20:31:20 +0700 Subject: Vinux 3.2 Released! In-Reply-To: References: <58C326E7D5A7B84190C31DE21721FF1D269AA743@MAIL1.rncb.ac.uk> <4E09235E.9070105@rustytelephone.net> Message-ID: <4E09D7A8.2090007@gmail.com> Hi Run wget inside a screen session or use nohup command. If you are trying to download from a network connectivity issues use the following command. wget -c -t 0 -T 20 example.com/new.iso HTH Regards, - Arky Free Software Developer& ICT Consultant Hanoi, Vietnam Blog - http://playingwithsid.blogspot.com Twitter - @playingwithsid - Follow me! From alex.midence at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 14:28:34 2011 From: alex.midence at gmail.com (Alex Midence) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 09:28:34 -0500 Subject: First formal request for testers related to qt-at-spi Message-ID: Hi, all, It's hot off the presses, folks. I want to try this real bad. Unfortunately, work has heated up for me considerably of late making it impossible for me to do anything fun like tinkering with Linux for a while. *sigh* So ... whoever wants to ... Now's your chance! Alex M ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: kde-accessibility-request at kde.org Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 12:00:33 +0200 Subject: kde-accessibility Digest, Vol 90, Issue 5 To: kde-accessibility at kde.org Send kde-accessibility mailing list submissions to kde-accessibility at kde.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to kde-accessibility-request at kde.org You can reach the person managing the list at kde-accessibility-owner at kde.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of kde-accessibility digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Unity 2D Accessibility, Testers Welcome (Frederik Gladhorn) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 11:33:19 +0200 From: Frederik Gladhorn Subject: [Kde-accessibility] Unity 2D Accessibility, Testers Welcome To: kde-accessibility at kde.org Cc: ext Florian Boucault , didier Roche Message-ID: <201106301133.19234.gladhorn at kde.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Hi, lately Florian and Didier did some nice work to get the patches needed for a working Qt at-spi2 accessibility ready for Ubuntu. It's also exciting since they are making Unity-Qt accessible - yes that is the first QML app that tests our changes for Qt. While I personally don't care which distro anyone runs, right now this is a nice chance to test accessibility with KDE apps without any hastle. So if you're interested to find out where we stand, check it out :) With the setup described below you should be up and running in no time. Cheers Frederik PS: If anyone else want to manually get this up and running: My recommendation is at the moment to grab Qt 4.8 master and the bridge from gitorious. https://gitorious.org/qt-at-spi https://qt.gitorious.org/qt/accessibility contains the changes needed for QML (branch 4.8-a11y) if you want to play with that. Fredag 24. juni 2011 14.57.24 skrev ext Florian Boucault : > Hello, > > Thanks to the fantastic work of Frederik Gladhorn, Qt and QML are > accessible on Linux. > Our very own awesome Didier Roche packaged it and pushed it in Oneiric > and even blogged about it (see [1])! > This work is now being put to use to make Unity 2D accessible. A very > first prototype is available, though with major bugs. I would love to > get as much feedback as possible about it. To that end I published a > version of Unity 2D in a PPA for Natty at [2]. > > I put together a script (install_accessible_unity_2d.sh in attachment) > that installs everything necessary so that when you log back in the > Unity 2D session accessibility should work. Be careful, it does the > following: > - install accessibility-enabled Qt 4.7.3 and Unity 2D from the PPA > - activate AT-SPI 2 > - activate accessibility in Qt system-wide by adding environment > variables to /etc/environment > > It is for Natty only. > I have not had the opportunity to try this script on a fresh Natty so > please let me know if something goes wrong or if you can think of an > improvement. > > Thank you for reporting anything that does not work well in Unity 2D > accessibility wise directly to me. For bugs in other Qt applications > please report bugs against the qt package with the tag 'a11y'. > > Known bugs are: > - crash when going into the contextual menu of an item in the launcher > - when hidden the launcher needs Alt-F1 twice to show > - in the panel, switching from a menu to another gives the focus briefly > to the focused application > - in the panel, scrubbing from the app menu to the indicators is not > implemented > - only the search field is accessible in the dash > > > Have a nice day, > > Florian > > [1] http://blog.didrocks.fr/post/Accessible-Qt-now-in-Oneiric! > [2] https://launchpad.net/~unity-2d-team/+archive/accessibility -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: install_accessible_unity_2d.sh Type: application/x-shellscript Size: 534 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-accessibility/attachments/20110630/5784fb70/attachment-0001.sh ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ kde-accessibility mailing list kde-accessibility at kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility End of kde-accessibility Digest, Vol 90, Issue 5 ************************************************ From mj at mjw.se Thu Jun 30 21:19:57 2011 From: mj at mjw.se (mattias) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 22:19:57 +0100 Subject: gnome-speech-dectalk Message-ID: <000601cc376b$77314dd0$0717e255@mj> anyone get it installed without errors? ubuntu natty i don't get it installed lot of errors about something with libglib2.0-0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: