From milton at tomaatnet.nl Tue Jul 2 12:04:11 2013 From: milton at tomaatnet.nl (Milton) Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2013 14:04:11 +0200 Subject: mbrola in Orca Message-ID: <51D2C1BB.5080506@tomaatnet.nl> Hi, I use Ubuntu 12.04 with Orca 3.4.2 and espeak. I tried the Dutch voice of Mbrola. In /etc/speech-dispatcher/speechd.conf I uncommand the line: AddModule "espeak-mbrola-generic" "sd_generic" "espeak-mbrola-generic.conf" So I could chose for mbrola in Orca. The settings of the volume, pitch and speed in Orca does not effect the mbrola voice. Do you know how to change the volume, pichtrate and speed for the mbrola voice? Thanks. Milton From keithint1234 at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 01:10:21 2013 From: keithint1234 at gmail.com (Keith Hinton) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2013 18:10:21 -0700 Subject: What is the best way to launch Orca in Ubuntu 13.04 or later from the Live DVD? Thanks! Message-ID: Hi folks: I tried to ask the question their in the subject. That being what is the best way to launch Orca for Ubuntu 13.04 and later in the Live DVD images? I'd like to try booting Ubuntu 13.04, on my MacBookPro, 8,1 model. But it's only Ubuntu 13.04 (and probably later) where this machine is supported. That's why I thought I'd ask. Thanks! -- Sincerely, Keith Home Phone: 928-554-3936 Mobile Phone: 928-713-6370 Primary email: keithint1234 at gmail.com From 0123peter at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 04:32:55 2013 From: 0123peter at gmail.com (blind Pete) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 14:32:55 +1000 Subject: What is the best way to launch Orca in Ubuntu 13.04 or later from the Live DVD? Thanks! References: Message-ID: Keith Hinton wrote: > Hi folks: > I tried to ask the question their in the subject. > That being what is the best way to launch Orca for Ubuntu 13.04 and > later in the Live DVD images? > I'd like to try booting Ubuntu 13.04, on my MacBookPro, 8,1 model. > But it's only Ubuntu 13.04 (and probably later) where this machine is > supported. That's why I thought I'd ask. > Thanks! What is only supported in 13.04? Look at . It is only based on Ubuntu 12.04, but it has a backported kernel and it is preconfigured for Orca from a live boot. -- blind Pete Sig goes here... From milton at tomaatnet.nl Thu Jul 11 12:53:50 2013 From: milton at tomaatnet.nl (Milton) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 14:53:50 +0200 Subject: magnify in Ubuntu 12.04 Message-ID: <51DEAADE.5090805@tomaatnet.nl> Hi, I use Ubuntu 12.04 Unity 2D with Orca 3.4.2. For a friend with low vision a question: can he use a magnify app in Ubuntu? The settings he could do in Universal Access are far from enough. Thanks. Milton From casson.david at gmail.com Thu Jul 11 13:15:51 2013 From: casson.david at gmail.com (David Casson) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 15:15:51 +0200 Subject: magnify in Ubuntu 12.04 In-Reply-To: <51DEAADE.5090805@tomaatnet.nl> References: <51DEAADE.5090805@tomaatnet.nl> Message-ID: Hi, I'm a partially sighted person and i use cpmpiz fusion. But this system don't work very well with Orca. I installed the packages : - compizconfig-setting-manger - compiz-fusion - gnome-session-fallback My configuration : Ubntu 12.04 + gnome session fallback + compiz enhanced Zoom (super+button4 Zoom in / super+button5 Zoom out) Your are two choices : - for low vision with orca + compiz (work partially) - for blind : gnome-session + no effect (without compiz) David 2013/7/11 Milton > Hi, > I use Ubuntu 12.04 Unity 2D with Orca 3.4.2. For a friend with low vision > a question: can he use a magnify app in Ubuntu? The settings he could do in > Universal Access are far from enough. Thanks. > Milton > > -- > Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list > Ubuntu-accessibility at lists.**ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/**mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-**accessibility > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From milton at tomaatnet.nl Thu Jul 11 19:21:59 2013 From: milton at tomaatnet.nl (Milton) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 21:21:59 +0200 Subject: {Spam?} Re: magnify in Ubuntu 12.04 References: <51DEAADE.5090805@tomaatnet.nl> Message-ID: Did you install the 2 compiz packages from the terminal? ----- Original Message ----- From: David Casson To: Milton Cc: ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 3:15 PM Subject: {Spam?} Re: magnify in Ubuntu 12.04 Hi, I'm a partially sighted person and i use cpmpiz fusion. But this system don't work very well with Orca. I installed the packages : - compizconfig-setting-manger - compiz-fusion - gnome-session-fallback My configuration : Ubntu 12.04 + gnome session fallback + compiz enhanced Zoom (super+button4 Zoom in / super+button5 Zoom out) Your are two choices : - for low vision with orca + compiz (work partially) - for blind : gnome-session + no effect (without compiz) David 2013/7/11 Milton Hi, I use Ubuntu 12.04 Unity 2D with Orca 3.4.2. For a friend with low vision a question: can he use a magnify app in Ubuntu? The settings he could do in Universal Access are far from enough. Thanks. Milton -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From casson.david at gmail.com Thu Jul 11 19:26:32 2013 From: casson.david at gmail.com (David Casson) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 21:26:32 +0200 Subject: {Spam?} Re: magnify in Ubuntu 12.04 In-Reply-To: References: <51DEAADE.5090805@tomaatnet.nl> Message-ID: sudo apt-get install gnome-session-fallback compizconfig-settings-manager compiz-fusion-plugins-extra 2013/7/11 Milton > ** > Did you install the 2 compiz packages from the terminal? > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* David Casson > *To:* Milton > *Cc:* ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com > *Sent:* Thursday, July 11, 2013 3:15 PM > *Subject:* {Spam?} Re: magnify in Ubuntu 12.04 > > Hi, > > I'm a partially sighted person and i use cpmpiz fusion. But this system > don't work very well with Orca. > > I installed the packages : > - compizconfig-setting-manger > - compiz-fusion > - gnome-session-fallback > > My configuration : > Ubntu 12.04 + gnome session fallback + compiz enhanced Zoom (super+button4 > Zoom in / super+button5 Zoom out) > > Your are two choices : > - for low vision with orca + compiz (work partially) > - for blind : gnome-session + no effect (without compiz) > > David > > > > 2013/7/11 Milton > >> Hi, >> I use Ubuntu 12.04 Unity 2D with Orca 3.4.2. For a friend with low vision >> a question: can he use a magnify app in Ubuntu? The settings he could do in >> Universal Access are far from enough. Thanks. >> Milton >> >> -- >> Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list >> Ubuntu-accessibility at lists.**ubuntu.com >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/**mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-**accessibility >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From keithint1234 at gmail.com Thu Jul 11 22:39:57 2013 From: keithint1234 at gmail.com (Keith Hinton) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 15:39:57 -0700 Subject: What is the best way to launch Orca in Ubuntu 13.04 or later from the LiveDVD? Thanks! Message-ID: Pete: I'm not sure if you read my message or not. My hardware at this time is not supported in Vinux. It is only supported in upstream Ubuntu as of 13.04 or later releases. What I was asking was how to get Orca up and going with Ubuntu's Live system. When I last used Ubuntu, back in the Gnome2.x days you would: boot the media. Press f5. Hit 3 for screen reader. Press enter. So again my question is what is the best way to get Orca up and going especially if using the Unity environment? Unity is completely different, from any of the Gnome2.x days. And I thought I'd try Ubuntu 13.04, since my MacBookPro is supported. But 12.04 is not listed, in fact no LTS release supports what I'm trying to run Ubuntu on. I use a MacBook Pro model 8,1. For more details, please see this: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBookPro Scan down the page. You'll see when you enter 8,1 that no LTS release supports the hardware thus why I can't use Vinux4. And thus my question about how to get Orca up and going with Ubuntu desktop. -- Sincerely, Keith Home Phone: 928-554-3936 Mobile Phone: 928-713-6370 Primary email: keithint1234 at gmail.com From milton at tomaatnet.nl Sat Jul 13 07:36:27 2013 From: milton at tomaatnet.nl (Milton) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 09:36:27 +0200 Subject: {Spam?} Re: {Spam?} Re: magnify in Ubuntu 12.04 References: <51DEAADE.5090805@tomaatnet.nl> Message-ID: <71B02CD7DEF44AA183F4CA522A4F82C3@milton> Many thanks. Can you give me some instructions what to do to get the magnifyer running when starting the setting manager? ----- Original Message ----- From: David Casson To: Milton Cc: ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 9:26 PM Subject: {Spam?} Re: {Spam?} Re: magnify in Ubuntu 12.04 sudo apt-get install gnome-session-fallback compizconfig-settings-manager compiz-fusion-plugins-extra 2013/7/11 Milton Did you install the 2 compiz packages from the terminal? ----- Original Message ----- From: David Casson To: Milton Cc: ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 3:15 PM Subject: {Spam?} Re: magnify in Ubuntu 12.04 Hi, I'm a partially sighted person and i use cpmpiz fusion. But this system don't work very well with Orca. I installed the packages : - compizconfig-setting-manger - compiz-fusion - gnome-session-fallback My configuration : Ubntu 12.04 + gnome session fallback + compiz enhanced Zoom (super+button4 Zoom in / super+button5 Zoom out) Your are two choices : - for low vision with orca + compiz (work partially) - for blind : gnome-session + no effect (without compiz) David 2013/7/11 Milton Hi, I use Ubuntu 12.04 Unity 2D with Orca 3.4.2. For a friend with low vision a question: can he use a magnify app in Ubuntu? The settings he could do in Universal Access are far from enough. Thanks. Milton -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From petra at access-for-all.ch Sat Jul 13 10:10:39 2013 From: petra at access-for-all.ch (Petra Ritter) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 12:10:39 +0200 Subject: Installing Ubuntu 13.04 with orca? Message-ID: <51E1279F.2050003@access-for-all.ch> Hello, Is it possible to install Ubuntu with Orca? The first time I tray it I stared Orca by pressing CTRL+S after the first scrren of the installer was displayed. Orca was started without problems but it says always Installer not accessible or something like this. How I start Orca so that It works in the Installer or how I can install Ubuntu 13.04? Best regards Petra From 0123peter at gmail.com Mon Jul 15 10:01:08 2013 From: 0123peter at gmail.com (blind Pete) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 20:01:08 +1000 Subject: What is the best way to launch Orca in Ubuntu 13.04 or later from the LiveDVD? Thanks! References: Message-ID: <5stcba-uai.ln1@psd.motzarella.org> Keith Hinton wrote: > Pete: > I'm not sure if you read my message or not. I read it. > My hardware at this time is not supported in Vinux. How do you know? > It is only supported in upstream Ubuntu as of 13.04 or later releases. I repeat, Vinux has a BACKPORTED kernel. That is, one transplanted from a newer release of Ubuntu - so that IT WILL SUPPORT MORE HARDWARE than Ubuntu 12.04 does. > What I was asking was how to get Orca up and going with Ubuntu's Live > system. If you are lucky; put the Vinux disc in the slot and turn the power on. > When I last used Ubuntu, back in the Gnome2.x days you would: > boot the media. > Press f5. > Hit 3 for screen reader. > Press enter. > So again my question is what is the best way to get Orca up and going > especially if using the Unity environment? *I* think that the best way is to find a distribution that works "out of the box", but you are free to do whatever you like. > Unity is completely different, from any of the Gnome2.x days. > And I thought I'd try Ubuntu 13.04, since my MacBookPro is supported. > But 12.04 is not listed, in fact no LTS release supports what I'm > trying to run Ubuntu on. > I use a MacBook Pro model 8,1. > For more details, please see this: > https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBookPro > Scan down the page. You'll see when you enter 8,1 that no LTS release > supports the hardware thus why I can't use Vinux4. And thus my > question about how to get Orca up and going with Ubuntu desktop. Cut-n-paste from the link given; MacBookPro 8,1 8,2 8,3: Ubuntu 13.04 (Raring Ringtail) Ubuntu 12.10 (Quantal Quetzal) Ubuntu 11.10 (Oneiric Ocelot) Ubuntu 11.04 (Natty Narwhal) Ubuntu 10.10 (Maverick Meerkat) end cut-n-paste. The missing version 12.04 is very odd, but since both older and newer versions are listed it looks like a documentation error rather than a real problem. Note also: you can not easily upgrade a DVD, only replace it with a newer one. So any question about Long Term Support is moot for a live CD or live DVD. Of course if you INSTALL it to your hard disk, that is a different story. -- blind Pete Sig goes here... From casson.david at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 02:19:40 2013 From: casson.david at gmail.com (David Casson) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 04:19:40 +0200 Subject: participate Message-ID: Hi, I shall like helping you and bringing my help. I'm a partially sighted person and I use ubuntu for several years. Mainly I use gnome fallback session + compiz for the zoom. I think of reinstalling my system, of working you mainly on the LTS or all the distributions? Best regards David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alex.midence at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 18:23:47 2013 From: alex.midence at gmail.com (Alex Midence) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 13:23:47 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT Message-ID: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> Hi, all, It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in the near future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone know the current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all disappointed to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu 12.04 and it is believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's wonderfully accessible legacy. This was supposed to soothe our ruffled feathers when 12.10 and 13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even more in light of this development. Please see link below: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced Regards, Alex M -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krmane at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 18:26:50 2013 From: krmane at gmail.com (Krishnakant Mane) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 23:56:50 +0530 Subject: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51EECAEA.8050401@gmail.com> From what has been said about QT accessibility off late, it could infact be a blessing in disguise. I think the people working on that front would have a better and real answer though. And we can go ahead with gnome shell if things bother us too much. happy hacking. Krishnakant. On 07/23/2013 11:53 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > Hi, all, > > > > It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in the near > future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone know the current > state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all disappointed to find out > that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu 12.04 and it is believed that > Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's wonderfully accessible legacy. This was > supposed to soothe our ruffled feathers when 12.10 and 13.04 came out with > Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, now, I am curious to know > if the timetable for that level of accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will > need to be pushed back even more in light of this development. Please see > link below: > > > > http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced > > > > Regards, > > Alex M > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alex.midence at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 18:37:30 2013 From: alex.midence at gmail.com (Alex Midence) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 13:37:30 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <51EECAEA.8050401@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EECAEA.8050401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <016501ce87d3$b0ed8b50$12c8a1f0$@gmail.com> From: Krishnakant Mane [mailto:krmane at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 1:27 PM To: Alex Midence Cc: orca-list at gnome.org; vinux-support at googlegroups.com; Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List; kde-accessibility at kde.org Subject: Re: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT >From what has been said about QT accessibility off late, it could infact be a blessing in disguise. I think the people working on that front would have a better and real answer though. <> Really hope you are right, Krishnakant. I have heard very good things about the accessibility in QT5. Let's hope it's that blessing in disguise you spoke of. Regards, Alex M -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chaltain at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 19:58:01 2013 From: chaltain at gmail.com (Christopher Chaltain) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 14:58:01 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> Unity 2D was pulled from Ubuntu 12.10 and not Ubuntu 12.04. The plan to focus accessibility efforts in Ubuntu on the LTS releases was meant to provide the best accessibility solution with the resources available. This was a transparent decision made with the best information at the time. Obviously, desktop plans have changed since then. This was not a statement or move just to placate blind Ubuntu users as your message implies. On 07/23/2013 01:23 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > Hi, all, > > It looks like Ubuntu’s Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in the > near future. It looks like they’ll be using QT5. Does anyone know the > current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all disappointed > to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu 12.04 and it is > believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it’s wonderfully accessible > legacy. This was supposed to soothe our ruffled feathers when 12.10 and > 13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, > now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of > accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even more > in light of this development. Please see link below: > > http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced > > Regards, > > Alex M > > > > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > -- Christopher (CJ) chaltain at Gmail From texou at actux.eu.org Tue Jul 23 20:22:55 2013 From: texou at actux.eu.org (Jean-Philippe MENGUAL) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 22:22:55 +0200 Subject: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130723202255.GB11651@HP> Hi, For the unity iN Vinux 13.4, how do you do to shut down the computer? I found with gnome, but not with Unity. Moreover, on gnome-shell, is there some doc about accessibility and using it with the keyboard with news (Start key, Tab key, etc.)? Thanks Regards, On mardi 23 juil. 2013 à 14:58:01 (-0500), Christopher Chaltain wrote: > Unity 2D was pulled from Ubuntu 12.10 and not Ubuntu 12.04. The plan > to focus accessibility efforts in Ubuntu on the LTS releases was > meant to provide the best accessibility solution with the resources > available. This was a transparent decision made with the best > information at the time. Obviously, desktop plans have changed since > then. This was not a statement or move just to placate blind Ubuntu > users as your message implies. > > On 07/23/2013 01:23 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > >Hi, all, > > > >It looks like Ubuntu?s Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in the > >near future. It looks like they?ll be using QT5. Does anyone know the > >current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all disappointed > >to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu 12.04 and it is > >believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it?s wonderfully accessible > >legacy. This was supposed to soothe our ruffled feathers when 12.10 and > >13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, > >now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of > >accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even more > >in light of this development. Please see link below: > > > >http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced > > > >Regards, > > > >Alex M > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >orca-list mailing list > >orca-list at gnome.org > >https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > >Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > >The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > >The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > >Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > >Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > > > > -- > Christopher (CJ) > chaltain at Gmail > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp From chaltain at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 20:38:37 2013 From: chaltain at gmail.com (Christopher Chaltain) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 15:38:37 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <20130723202255.GB11651@HP> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <20130723202255.GB11651@HP> Message-ID: <51EEE9CD.2040909@gmail.com> In Unity, you can use the alt+f10 key to bring up the global menus, arrow left to get to the devices pull down and then down arrow to shutdown. Note that Vinux 4.0 is based on Ubuntu 12.04 which runs Unity 2D by default. Your statement, "Vinux in 13.4 is confusing. On 07/23/2013 03:22 PM, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote: > Hi, > > For the unity iN Vinux 13.4, how do you do to shut down the computer? I found > with gnome, but not with Unity. > > Moreover, on gnome-shell, is there some doc about accessibility and using it > with the keyboard with news (Start key, Tab key, etc.)? > > Thanks > > Regards, > > On mardi 23 juil. 2013 à 14:58:01 (-0500), Christopher Chaltain wrote: >> Unity 2D was pulled from Ubuntu 12.10 and not Ubuntu 12.04. The plan >> to focus accessibility efforts in Ubuntu on the LTS releases was >> meant to provide the best accessibility solution with the resources >> available. This was a transparent decision made with the best >> information at the time. Obviously, desktop plans have changed since >> then. This was not a statement or move just to placate blind Ubuntu >> users as your message implies. >> >> On 07/23/2013 01:23 PM, Alex Midence wrote: >>> Hi, all, >>> >>> It looks like Ubuntu?s Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in the >>> near future. It looks like they?ll be using QT5. Does anyone know the >>> current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all disappointed >>> to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu 12.04 and it is >>> believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it?s wonderfully accessible >>> legacy. This was supposed to soothe our ruffled feathers when 12.10 and >>> 13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, >>> now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of >>> accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even more >>> in light of this development. Please see link below: >>> >>> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Alex M >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> orca-list mailing list >>> orca-list at gnome.org >>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list >>> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. >>> The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html >>> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions >>> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org >>> Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp >>> >> >> -- >> Christopher (CJ) >> chaltain at Gmail >> _______________________________________________ >> orca-list mailing list >> orca-list at gnome.org >> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list >> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. >> The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html >> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions >> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org >> Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp -- Christopher (CJ) chaltain at Gmail From alex.midence at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 20:41:32 2013 From: alex.midence at gmail.com (Alex Midence) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 15:41:32 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> Placated? No, we weren't placated. We were told that's how it was going to be and we could suck it up til 14.04. I heard you work for Cannonical which makes sense since you are extremely quick to defend Ubuntu any time anyone speaks against it. If this is the case, would you very kindly answer the million dollar question which was the entire point of my prior message: Will 14.04 be accessible now that it's going to be qt-based or not? If not, when do you anticipate an accessible port of Unity? Oh, and just so you know, my message wasn't trying to be inflammatory. I *was* being a bit snarky but, I happen to live in a free country where such things are allowed. I was far more concerned with whether or not I should project trying to come back to Ubuntu in April of next year or not. You see, I happen to be that very odd thing called a fan. I follow them on Twitter, I like them on facebook, I read about them online and I have even hauled off and told my friends about them as a nice way to learn about Linux. So quit hair splitting and answer the question if you can, please. Thank you. Alex M -----Original Message----- From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces at gnome.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Chaltain Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 2:58 PM To: Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List Cc: vinux-support at googlegroups.com; orca-list at gnome.org Subject: Re: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT Unity 2D was pulled from Ubuntu 12.10 and not Ubuntu 12.04. The plan to focus accessibility efforts in Ubuntu on the LTS releases was meant to provide the best accessibility solution with the resources available. This was a transparent decision made with the best information at the time. Obviously, desktop plans have changed since then. This was not a statement or move just to placate blind Ubuntu users as your message implies. On 07/23/2013 01:23 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > Hi, all, > > It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in > the near future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone > know the current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all > disappointed to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu > 12.04 and it is believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's > wonderfully accessible legacy. This was supposed to soothe our > ruffled feathers when 12.10 and > 13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, > now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of > accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even > more in light of this development. Please see link below: > > http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced > > Regards, > > Alex M > > > > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out > how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > -- Christopher (CJ) chaltain at Gmail _______________________________________________ orca-list mailing list orca-list at gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp From chaltain at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 21:31:04 2013 From: chaltain at gmail.com (Christopher Chaltain) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 16:31:04 -0500 Subject: VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> I do not work for Canonical, and my statements on this or any list have never been anything other than my own opinions. I don't know any more, and never have, about the plans for Unity accessibility than anyone else following the Ubuntu blueprints, subscribing to the Ubuntu accessibility mailing list, logging into the Ubuntu accessibility IRC channel and attending the accessibility related sessions at UDS. This is how I know the decision to focus accessibility resources on the LTS releases was a very open and transparent decision. It was also not an easy decision to make. I don't personally know at the moment what the plans are now for the accessibility of Unity and Ubuntu 14.04, but I assume they haven't changed and this is still the goal. I don't think I'm quick to defend Ubuntu or Unity when anyone speaks out against it, since there isn't enough time in the world for one person to do this. I do try to point out though when someone misstates something or says something that can lead to an incorrect inference. I don't just do this for Ubuntu but other OS's, screen readers, applications and products where I have some knowledge and experience. The fact of the matter is that you stated the decision to focus accessibility resources on 14.04 was to "sooth our ruffled feathers". Of course, you have the right to your opinion, and you can be as snarky as you want (although I don't know what this has to do with what country your from) but as I read this, it implies that the developers made this statement to get blind users off their back. I can assure you, since I was in the room when this was discussed and this decision was made, that this was not the case. The fact of the matter, is that it was considered to be the best way to leverage the precious accessibility resources working on Ubuntu, and it was just as simple as that. There were no ulterior motives, and there was no discussion whatsoever on spin or damage control. I understand you think this may be hair splitting, but I think it's important that people reading your message understand that the accessibility developers working on Unity aren't doing anything but being completely honest and open with the blind Ubuntu/Unity users. I am quick to defend those developers who are working so hard, many of them giving from their own spare time, to bring us more accessible solutions. BTW, we weren't told this was the way it was going to be. The proposal was laid out at a session at UDS to be discussed. Anyone could have attended that session, either in person or via IRC or telephone, and participated in the discussion. Since resources are so limited, I'm not sure what other conclusion could have been made though. BTW, given previous emails from you, I assumed this wasn't intended to be inflammatory, but I thought the above inference could be made which is why I replied as I did. If I'm the only one who made such an inference then that's great. On 07/23/2013 03:41 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > Placated? No, we weren't placated. We were told that's how it was going to > be and we could suck it up til 14.04. I heard you work for Cannonical which > makes sense since you are extremely quick to defend Ubuntu any time anyone > speaks against it. If this is the case, would you very kindly answer the > million dollar question which was the entire point of my prior message: > > Will 14.04 be accessible now that it's going to be qt-based or not? If not, > when do you anticipate an accessible port of Unity? > > Oh, and just so you know, my message wasn't trying to be inflammatory. I > *was* being a bit snarky but, I happen to live in a free country where such > things are allowed. I was far more concerned with whether or not I should > project trying to come back to Ubuntu in April of next year or not. You > see, I happen to be that very odd thing called a fan. I follow them on > Twitter, I like them on facebook, I read about them online and I have even > hauled off and told my friends about them as a nice way to learn about > Linux. So quit hair splitting and answer the question if you can, please. > > Thank you. > Alex M > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces at gnome.org] On Behalf Of > Christopher Chaltain > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 2:58 PM > To: Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List > Cc: vinux-support at googlegroups.com; orca-list at gnome.org > Subject: Re: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT > > Unity 2D was pulled from Ubuntu 12.10 and not Ubuntu 12.04. The plan to > focus accessibility efforts in Ubuntu on the LTS releases was meant to > provide the best accessibility solution with the resources available. > This was a transparent decision made with the best information at the time. > Obviously, desktop plans have changed since then. This was not a statement > or move just to placate blind Ubuntu users as your message implies. > > On 07/23/2013 01:23 PM, Alex Midence wrote: >> Hi, all, >> >> It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in >> the near future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone >> know the current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all >> disappointed to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu >> 12.04 and it is believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's >> wonderfully accessible legacy. This was supposed to soothe our >> ruffled feathers when 12.10 and >> 13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, >> now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of >> accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even >> more in light of this development. Please see link below: >> >> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced >> >> Regards, >> >> Alex M >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> orca-list mailing list >> orca-list at gnome.org >> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list >> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. >> The manual is at >> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html >> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions >> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out >> how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp >> > > -- > Christopher (CJ) > chaltain at Gmail > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out how to > help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > -- Christopher (CJ) chaltain at Gmail From alex.midence at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 03:33:34 2013 From: alex.midence at gmail.com (Alex Midence) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 22:33:34 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51EF4B0E.3050303@gmail.com> On 7/23/2013 4:31 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote: > I do not work for Canonical, and my statements on this or any list > have never been anything other than my own opinions. I don't know any > more, and never have, about the plans for Unity accessibility than > anyone else Bummer. I was really hoping you would know. Sorry to jump down your throat there. I really should not have sent that message. I reread my message and see how you construed what you did from it. Also, for the record, I fully recognize and appreciate all the hard work of the developers of the Ubuntu community who freely give of their time to make things accessible. However, it was disappointing to finally have gotten a very accessible port of Unity in 12.04 only to be told that we were back to poor a11y in other versions of the distro for at the very least 2 full years. This was at a time when Vinux, Ubuntu and Debian were the only distributions that could easily be installed without requiring advanced Linux skills. In fact, Vinux 4 wasn't even out yet so, really, you just had Squeeze and Precise as fully released and stable distributions that fit my description. Pax, Alex M From themuso at ubuntu.com Wed Jul 24 04:04:47 2013 From: themuso at ubuntu.com (Luke Yelavich) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 14:04:47 +1000 Subject: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <51EF4B0E.3050303@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> <51EF4B0E.3050303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130724040447.GA24645@acapella> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 01:33:34PM EST, Alex Midence wrote: > Also, for the record, I fully recognize and appreciate all the hard > work of the developers of the Ubuntu community who freely give of > their time to make things accessible. However, it was disappointing > to finally have gotten a very accessible port of Unity in 12.04 only > to be told that we were back to poor a11y in other versions of the > distro for at the very least 2 full years. For the record, I was disappointed as well. I expressed my desire for Unity to stick with using Qt at the time, given the accessibility advantages it brought for one, and the fact that it would have made maintaining unity easier as the nux GUI toolkit wouldn't also need to be maintained, and Qt is well established etc. I am the only developer working for Canonical who spends at least some of the time working on accessibility issues. I say some of the time, because I do have other duties, in fact the primary reason why I was hired was not to work exclusively on accessibility, although the powers that be are ok with me doing so. Having said that, my big focus for the next 10-12 months will almost exclusively be getting Qt5, Mir, and Unity as accessible an environment as one person can possibly manage. Qt5 helps somewhat, but the specific parts of Qt that are being used for the new Unity still have some rough spots when it comes to accessibility, and there is also the changing graphics stack and everythign that goes with it to deal with. Given these changes, and given I am the only person who is likely going to be working on all of this, I cannot really promise anything, given the work that is required, and given the time and resources, or possibly lack there of, available to do so. I do really appreciate that you all want regularly updated, accessible distro releases that have the latest accessibility crack, but please keep in mind just how many of us in the wider *nix accessibility community there are, and also keep in mind how many of us are involved with some form of active development in the area, and if you want to dig deeper, think about the number of us working on GUI desktop accessibility of some kind. I try to take the approach of under promising, and at least delivering, and if I can over deliver, than thats great. In the meantime, there is the Ubuntu GNOME remix, with GNOME shell, wich does work quite well these days. I'll do my best to try and fix any issues people may notice with that release, given the accessibility tools and infrastructure are shared with GNOME and Unity. Thanks, and I really appreciate your understanding, and support. Luke From frederik at gladhorn.de Wed Jul 24 08:21:19 2013 From: frederik at gladhorn.de (Frederik Gladhorn) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 10:21:19 +0200 Subject: [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1534782.7298OKCLYF@anton> Hello, On Tuesday 23. July 2013 13.23.47 Alex Midence wrote: > Hi, all, > > > > It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in the near > future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone know the current > state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all disappointed to find > out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu 12.04 and it is believed that > Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's wonderfully accessible legacy. This was > supposed to soothe our ruffled feathers when 12.10 and 13.04 came out with > Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, now, I am curious to know > if the timetable for that level of accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will > need to be pushed back even more in light of this development. Please see > link below: > Qt 5 contains all the accessibility code that was used for Qt 4, including the plugin qt- at-spi which will then no longer be needed. Many things have also been improved since we learned from finally making Qt 4 accessible. All in all this means that the Qt 5 based Unity should be able to reach the level of the old Unity and hopefully exceed it. Of course that's still up to the Unity developers and probably a fix here or there in Qt, but generally I would expect things to look good. Greetings Frederik > > > http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced > > > > Regards, > > Alex M -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chaltain at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 21:31:04 2013 From: chaltain at gmail.com (Christopher Chaltain) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 16:31:04 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> I do not work for Canonical, and my statements on this or any list have never been anything other than my own opinions. I don't know any more, and never have, about the plans for Unity accessibility than anyone else following the Ubuntu blueprints, subscribing to the Ubuntu accessibility mailing list, logging into the Ubuntu accessibility IRC channel and attending the accessibility related sessions at UDS. This is how I know the decision to focus accessibility resources on the LTS releases was a very open and transparent decision. It was also not an easy decision to make. I don't personally know at the moment what the plans are now for the accessibility of Unity and Ubuntu 14.04, but I assume they haven't changed and this is still the goal. I don't think I'm quick to defend Ubuntu or Unity when anyone speaks out against it, since there isn't enough time in the world for one person to do this. I do try to point out though when someone misstates something or says something that can lead to an incorrect inference. I don't just do this for Ubuntu but other OS's, screen readers, applications and products where I have some knowledge and experience. The fact of the matter is that you stated the decision to focus accessibility resources on 14.04 was to "sooth our ruffled feathers". Of course, you have the right to your opinion, and you can be as snarky as you want (although I don't know what this has to do with what country your from) but as I read this, it implies that the developers made this statement to get blind users off their back. I can assure you, since I was in the room when this was discussed and this decision was made, that this was not the case. The fact of the matter, is that it was considered to be the best way to leverage the precious accessibility resources working on Ubuntu, and it was just as simple as that. There were no ulterior motives, and there was no discussion whatsoever on spin or damage control. I understand you think this may be hair splitting, but I think it's important that people reading your message understand that the accessibility developers working on Unity aren't doing anything but being completely honest and open with the blind Ubuntu/Unity users. I am quick to defend those developers who are working so hard, many of them giving from their own spare time, to bring us more accessible solutions. BTW, we weren't told this was the way it was going to be. The proposal was laid out at a session at UDS to be discussed. Anyone could have attended that session, either in person or via IRC or telephone, and participated in the discussion. Since resources are so limited, I'm not sure what other conclusion could have been made though. BTW, given previous emails from you, I assumed this wasn't intended to be inflammatory, but I thought the above inference could be made which is why I replied as I did. If I'm the only one who made such an inference then that's great. On 07/23/2013 03:41 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > Placated? No, we weren't placated. We were told that's how it was going to > be and we could suck it up til 14.04. I heard you work for Cannonical which > makes sense since you are extremely quick to defend Ubuntu any time anyone > speaks against it. If this is the case, would you very kindly answer the > million dollar question which was the entire point of my prior message: > > Will 14.04 be accessible now that it's going to be qt-based or not? If not, > when do you anticipate an accessible port of Unity? > > Oh, and just so you know, my message wasn't trying to be inflammatory. I > *was* being a bit snarky but, I happen to live in a free country where such > things are allowed. I was far more concerned with whether or not I should > project trying to come back to Ubuntu in April of next year or not. You > see, I happen to be that very odd thing called a fan. I follow them on > Twitter, I like them on facebook, I read about them online and I have even > hauled off and told my friends about them as a nice way to learn about > Linux. So quit hair splitting and answer the question if you can, please. > > Thank you. > Alex M > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces at gnome.org] On Behalf Of > Christopher Chaltain > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 2:58 PM > To: Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List > Cc: vinux-support at googlegroups.com; orca-list at gnome.org > Subject: Re: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT > > Unity 2D was pulled from Ubuntu 12.10 and not Ubuntu 12.04. The plan to > focus accessibility efforts in Ubuntu on the LTS releases was meant to > provide the best accessibility solution with the resources available. > This was a transparent decision made with the best information at the time. > Obviously, desktop plans have changed since then. This was not a statement > or move just to placate blind Ubuntu users as your message implies. > > On 07/23/2013 01:23 PM, Alex Midence wrote: >> Hi, all, >> >> It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in >> the near future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone >> know the current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all >> disappointed to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu >> 12.04 and it is believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's >> wonderfully accessible legacy. This was supposed to soothe our >> ruffled feathers when 12.10 and >> 13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, >> now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of >> accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even >> more in light of this development. Please see link below: >> >> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced >> >> Regards, >> >> Alex M >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> orca-list mailing list >> orca-list at gnome.org >> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list >> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. >> The manual is at >> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html >> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions >> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out >> how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp >> > > -- > Christopher (CJ) > chaltain at Gmail > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out how to > help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > -- Christopher (CJ) chaltain at Gmail _______________________________________________ orca-list mailing list orca-list at gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp From alex.midence at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 20:41:32 2013 From: alex.midence at gmail.com (Alex Midence) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 15:41:32 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> Placated? No, we weren't placated. We were told that's how it was going to be and we could suck it up til 14.04. I heard you work for Cannonical which makes sense since you are extremely quick to defend Ubuntu any time anyone speaks against it. If this is the case, would you very kindly answer the million dollar question which was the entire point of my prior message: Will 14.04 be accessible now that it's going to be qt-based or not? If not, when do you anticipate an accessible port of Unity? Oh, and just so you know, my message wasn't trying to be inflammatory. I *was* being a bit snarky but, I happen to live in a free country where such things are allowed. I was far more concerned with whether or not I should project trying to come back to Ubuntu in April of next year or not. You see, I happen to be that very odd thing called a fan. I follow them on Twitter, I like them on facebook, I read about them online and I have even hauled off and told my friends about them as a nice way to learn about Linux. So quit hair splitting and answer the question if you can, please. Thank you. Alex M -----Original Message----- From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces at gnome.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Chaltain Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 2:58 PM To: Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List Cc: vinux-support at googlegroups.com; orca-list at gnome.org Subject: Re: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT Unity 2D was pulled from Ubuntu 12.10 and not Ubuntu 12.04. The plan to focus accessibility efforts in Ubuntu on the LTS releases was meant to provide the best accessibility solution with the resources available. This was a transparent decision made with the best information at the time. Obviously, desktop plans have changed since then. This was not a statement or move just to placate blind Ubuntu users as your message implies. On 07/23/2013 01:23 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > Hi, all, > > It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in > the near future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone > know the current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all > disappointed to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu > 12.04 and it is believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's > wonderfully accessible legacy. This was supposed to soothe our > ruffled feathers when 12.10 and > 13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, > now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of > accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even > more in light of this development. Please see link below: > > http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced > > Regards, > > Alex M > > > > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out > how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > -- Christopher (CJ) chaltain at Gmail _______________________________________________ orca-list mailing list orca-list at gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp _______________________________________________ orca-list mailing list orca-list at gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp From alex.midence at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 18:23:47 2013 From: alex.midence at gmail.com (Alex Midence) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 13:23:47 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT Message-ID: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> Hi, all, It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in the near future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone know the current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all disappointed to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu 12.04 and it is believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's wonderfully accessible legacy. This was supposed to soothe our ruffled feathers when 12.10 and 13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even more in light of this development. Please see link below: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced Regards, Alex M -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ orca-list mailing list orca-list at gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp From alex.midence at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 13:07:06 2013 From: alex.midence at gmail.com (Alex Midence) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 08:07:06 -0500 Subject: [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <1534782.7298OKCLYF@anton> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <1534782.7298OKCLYF@anton> Message-ID: <005701ce886e$b3dc9180$1b95b480$@gmail.com> Wonderful news! I certainly feel better for it. Thanks for all your hard work on qt-at-spi. Alex M From: Frederik Gladhorn [mailto:frederik at gladhorn.de] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 3:21 AM To: kde-accessibility at kde.org Cc: Alex Midence; orca-list at gnome.org; vinux-support at googlegroups.com; Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT Hello, On Tuesday 23. July 2013 13.23.47 Alex Midence wrote: > Hi, all, > > > > It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in the near > future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone know the current > state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all disappointed to find > out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu 12.04 and it is believed that > Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's wonderfully accessible legacy. This was > supposed to soothe our ruffled feathers when 12.10 and 13.04 came out with > Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, now, I am curious to know > if the timetable for that level of accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will > need to be pushed back even more in light of this development. Please see > link below: > Qt 5 contains all the accessibility code that was used for Qt 4, including the plugin qt-at-spi which will then no longer be needed. Many things have also been improved since we learned from finally making Qt 4 accessible. All in all this means that the Qt 5 based Unity should be able to reach the level of the old Unity and hopefully exceed it. Of course that's still up to the Unity developers and probably a fix here or there in Qt, but generally I would expect things to look good. Greetings Frederik > > > http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced > > > > Regards, > > Alex M -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alex.midence at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 13:41:20 2013 From: alex.midence at gmail.com (Alex Midence) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 08:41:20 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <20130724040447.GA24645@acapella> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> <51EF4B0E.3050303@gmail.com> <20130724040447.GA24645@acapella> Message-ID: <008101ce8873$7b263080$71729180$@gmail.com> Hi, Luke, Just to be clear, I don't think and have never thought you were part of the problem. What I do think is that it sucks that you are the only one having to do all this work. They really should hire you some help. There is only so much one person can do and a11y is a big job. Apple has a full on team working on Voiceover. Google has Dr. Raman and his assistant and probably others I don't know about working on Android accessibility. If canonical is going to expand into all these other markets, I don't see why they can't hire you a couple of assistants to help distribute the workload. However, those decisions are beyond our control. Speaking for myself, I am personally very appreciative of all the work you have put in. Best regards, Alex M -----Original Message----- From: Luke Yelavich [mailto:themuso at ubuntu.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 11:05 PM To: Alex Midence Cc: Christopher Chaltain; vinux-support at googlegroups.com; 'Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List'; orca-list at gnome.org Subject: Re: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 01:33:34PM EST, Alex Midence wrote: > Also, for the record, I fully recognize and appreciate all the hard > work of the developers of the Ubuntu community who freely give of > their time to make things accessible. However, it was disappointing > to finally have gotten a very accessible port of Unity in 12.04 only > to be told that we were back to poor a11y in other versions of the > distro for at the very least 2 full years. For the record, I was disappointed as well. I expressed my desire for Unity to stick with using Qt at the time, given the accessibility advantages it brought for one, and the fact that it would have made maintaining unity easier as the nux GUI toolkit wouldn't also need to be maintained, and Qt is well established etc. I am the only developer working for Canonical who spends at least some of the time working on accessibility issues. I say some of the time, because I do have other duties, in fact the primary reason why I was hired was not to work exclusively on accessibility, although the powers that be are ok with me doing so. Having said that, my big focus for the next 10-12 months will almost exclusively be getting Qt5, Mir, and Unity as accessible an environment as one person can possibly manage. Qt5 helps somewhat, but the specific parts of Qt that are being used for the new Unity still have some rough spots when it comes to accessibility, and there is also the changing graphics stack and everythign that goes with it to deal with. Given these changes, and given I am the only person who is likely going to be working on all of this, I cannot really promise anything, given the work that is required, and given the time and resources, or possibly lack there of, available to do so. I do really appreciate that you all want regularly updated, accessible distro releases that have the latest accessibility crack, but please keep in mind just how many of us in the wider *nix accessibility community there are, and also keep in mind how many of us are involved with some form of active development in the area, and if you want to dig deeper, think about the number of us working on GUI desktop accessibility of some kind. I try to take the approach of under promising, and at least delivering, and if I can over deliver, than thats great. In the meantime, there is the Ubuntu GNOME remix, with GNOME shell, wich does work quite well these days. I'll do my best to try and fix any issues people may notice with that release, given the accessibility tools and infrastructure are shared with GNOME and Unity. Thanks, and I really appreciate your understanding, and support. Luke From krmane at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 13:41:33 2013 From: krmane at gmail.com (Krishnakant Mane) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 19:11:33 +0530 Subject: [orca-list] [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <005701ce886e$b3dc9180$1b95b480$@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <1534782.7298OKCLYF@anton> <005701ce886e$b3dc9180$1b95b480$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51EFD98D.6070102@gmail.com> This essentially means we must try things pretty early on and start reporting bugs agressively. happy hacking. Krishnakant. On 07/24/2013 06:37 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > Wonderful news! I certainly feel better for it. Thanks for all your hard > work on qt-at-spi. > > > > Alex M > > > > > > From: Frederik Gladhorn [mailto:frederik at gladhorn.de] > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 3:21 AM > To: kde-accessibility at kde.org > Cc: Alex Midence; orca-list at gnome.org; vinux-support at googlegroups.com; > Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT > > > > Hello, > > > > On Tuesday 23. July 2013 13.23.47 Alex Midence wrote: > >> Hi, all, >> It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in the > near > >> future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone know the current >> state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all disappointed to find >> out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu 12.04 and it is believed that >> Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's wonderfully accessible legacy. This was >> supposed to soothe our ruffled feathers when 12.10 and 13.04 came out with >> Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, now, I am curious to know >> if the timetable for that level of accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will >> need to be pushed back even more in light of this development. Please see >> link below: > > > Qt 5 contains all the accessibility code that was used for Qt 4, including > the plugin qt-at-spi which will then no longer be needed. Many things have > also been improved since we learned from finally making Qt 4 accessible. > > All in all this means that the Qt 5 based Unity should be able to reach the > level of the old Unity and hopefully exceed it. Of course that's still up to > the Unity developers and probably a fix here or there in Qt, but generally I > would expect things to look good. > > > > Greetings > > Frederik > > > >> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced >> Regards, >> Alex M > > > > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alex.midence at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 13:47:34 2013 From: alex.midence at gmail.com (Alex Midence) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 08:47:34 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <51EFD98D.6070102@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <1534782.7298OKCLYF@anton> <005701ce886e$b3dc9180$1b95b480$@gmail.com> <51EFD98D.6070102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008601ce8874$5a5cad10$0f160730$@gmail.com> Very true. The thing that I want to test is editable text areas in QT. That was the biggest problem I saw last year when I was trying out KDE. If you were in Kate or Kmail and there was some text you wanted to put in either because you were editing a file or filling out a form of some kind, Orca couldn't read it back to you. If it was a field you were filling in, you could tab away and backtab back to it and Orca would speak its contents but, individual character by character or word by word navigation was not possible at the time. I hope that's gotten better since then. I haven't looked at it since May or June of last year, I think. It is a very important piece of the puzzle. Alex M From: Krishnakant Mane [mailto:krmane at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 8:42 AM To: Alex Midence Cc: 'Frederik Gladhorn'; kde-accessibility at kde.org; vinux-support at googlegroups.com; 'Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List'; orca-list at gnome.org Subject: Re: [orca-list] [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT This essentially means we must try things pretty early on and start reporting bugs agressively. happy hacking. Krishnakant. On 07/24/2013 06:37 PM, Alex Midence wrote: Wonderful news! I certainly feel better for it. Thanks for all your hard work on qt-at-spi. Alex M From: Frederik Gladhorn [mailto:frederik at gladhorn.de] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 3:21 AM To: kde-accessibility at kde.org Cc: Alex Midence; orca-list at gnome.org; vinux-support at googlegroups.com; Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT Hello, On Tuesday 23. July 2013 13.23.47 Alex Midence wrote: Hi, all, It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in the near future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone know the current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all disappointed to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu 12.04 and it is believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's wonderfully accessible legacy. This was supposed to soothe our ruffled feathers when 12.10 and 13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even more in light of this development. Please see link below: Qt 5 contains all the accessibility code that was used for Qt 4, including the plugin qt-at-spi which will then no longer be needed. Many things have also been improved since we learned from finally making Qt 4 accessible. All in all this means that the Qt 5 based Unity should be able to reach the level of the old Unity and hopefully exceed it. Of course that's still up to the Unity developers and probably a fix here or there in Qt, but generally I would expect things to look good. Greetings Frederik http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced Regards, Alex M _______________________________________________ orca-list mailing list orca-list at gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krmane at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 13:50:20 2013 From: krmane at gmail.com (Krishnakant Mane) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 19:20:20 +0530 Subject: VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: [orca-list] [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <008601ce8874$5a5cad10$0f160730$@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <1534782.7298OKCLYF@anton> <005701ce886e$b3dc9180$1b95b480$@gmail.com> <51EFD98D.6070102@gmail.com> <008601ce8874$5a5cad10$0f160730$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51EFDB9C.8070609@gmail.com> yeah, I had tryed as well and had the same problem. I think there could be some more things to test and if they are not fundamentally broke, then we are in for a happy surprise. I would be interested to see how Firefox works under this infra structure and how libre office works as well. Personally, I use Eclipse so that's another thing to watch out. happy hacking. Krishnakant. On 07/24/2013 07:17 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > Very true. The thing that I want to test is editable text areas in QT. > That was the biggest problem I saw last year when I was trying out KDE. If > you were in Kate or Kmail and there was some text you wanted to put in > either because you were editing a file or filling out a form of some kind, > Orca couldn't read it back to you. If it was a field you were filling in, > you could tab away and backtab back to it and Orca would speak its contents > but, individual character by character or word by word navigation was not > possible at the time. I hope that's gotten better since then. I haven't > looked at it since May or June of last year, I think. It is a very > important piece of the puzzle. > > > > Alex M > > > > From: Krishnakant Mane [mailto:krmane at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 8:42 AM > To: Alex Midence > Cc: 'Frederik Gladhorn'; kde-accessibility at kde.org; > vinux-support at googlegroups.com; 'Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List'; > orca-list at gnome.org > Subject: Re: [orca-list] [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to > Mir and QT > > > > This essentially means we must try things pretty early on and start > reporting bugs agressively. > happy hacking. > Krishnakant. > > On 07/24/2013 06:37 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > > Wonderful news! I certainly feel better for it. Thanks for all your hard > work on qt-at-spi. > > > > Alex M > > > > > > From: Frederik Gladhorn [mailto:frederik at gladhorn.de] > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 3:21 AM > To: kde-accessibility at kde.org > Cc: Alex Midence; orca-list at gnome.org; vinux-support at googlegroups.com; > Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT > > > > Hello, > > > > On Tuesday 23. July 2013 13.23.47 Alex Midence wrote: > > > Hi, all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in the > > near > > > future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone know the current > > > > state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all disappointed to find > > > > out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu 12.04 and it is believed that > > > > Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's wonderfully accessible legacy. This was > > > > supposed to soothe our ruffled feathers when 12.10 and 13.04 came out with > > > > Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, now, I am curious to know > > > > if the timetable for that level of accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will > > > > need to be pushed back even more in light of this development. Please see > > > > link below: > > > > > > > > > Qt 5 contains all the accessibility code that was used for Qt 4, including > the plugin qt-at-spi which will then no longer be needed. Many things have > also been improved since we learned from finally making Qt 4 accessible. > > All in all this means that the Qt 5 based Unity should be able to reach the > level of the old Unity and hopefully exceed it. Of course that's still up to > the Unity developers and probably a fix here or there in Qt, but generally I > would expect things to look good. > > > > Greetings > > Frederik > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Alex M > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > > > From texou at actux.eu.org Wed Jul 24 14:07:43 2013 From: texou at actux.eu.org (Jean-Philippe MENGUAL) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 16:07:43 +0200 Subject: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <20130724040447.GA24645@acapella> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> <51EF4B0E.3050303@gmail.com> <20130724040447.GA24645@acapella> Message-ID: <20130724140743.GH11651@HP> Hi, Thanks Luke for this very interesting mail. I'm aware of accessibility issues in the modern free software world, and I try everyday to go on belfeving more success, even if I'm disappointed by recent GUI. But I go on trying to understand. You say that GNOME shell works fine today. I feel that changes are so important that I need to deep that better. Does some doc exist about new shortcuts, new approach in accessibility? Otherwise, I'll try to write it myself. Thanks again and I hope, someday, I'll be able to help you via my organization. Regards, JP On mercredi 24 juil. 2013 à 14:04:47 (+1000), Luke Yelavich wrote: > On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 01:33:34PM EST, Alex Midence wrote: > > Also, for the record, I fully recognize and appreciate all the hard > > work of the developers of the Ubuntu community who freely give of > > their time to make things accessible. However, it was disappointing > > to finally have gotten a very accessible port of Unity in 12.04 only > > to be told that we were back to poor a11y in other versions of the > > distro for at the very least 2 full years. > > For the record, I was disappointed as well. I expressed my desire for Unity to stick with using Qt at the time, given the accessibility advantages it brought for one, and the fact that it would have made maintaining unity easier as the nux GUI toolkit wouldn't also need to be maintained, and Qt is well established etc. > > I am the only developer working for Canonical who spends at least some of the time working on accessibility issues. I say some of the time, because I do have other duties, in fact the primary reason why I was hired was not to work exclusively on accessibility, although the powers that be are ok with me doing so. > > Having said that, my big focus for the next 10-12 months will almost exclusively be getting Qt5, Mir, and Unity as accessible an environment as one person can possibly manage. Qt5 helps somewhat, but the specific parts of Qt that are being used for the new Unity still have some rough spots when it comes to accessibility, and there is also the changing graphics stack and everythign that goes with it to deal with. > > Given these changes, and given I am the only person who is likely going to be working on all of this, I cannot really promise anything, given the work that is required, and given the time and resources, or possibly lack there of, available to do so. I do really appreciate that you all want regularly updated, accessible distro releases that have the latest accessibility crack, but please keep in mind just how many of us in the wider *nix accessibility community there are, and also keep in mind how many of us are involved with some form of active development in the area, and if you want to dig deeper, think about the number of us working on GUI desktop accessibility of some kind. > > I try to take the approach of under promising, and at least delivering, and if I can over deliver, than thats great. > > In the meantime, there is the Ubuntu GNOME remix, with GNOME shell, wich does work quite well these days. I'll do my best to try and fix any issues people may notice with that release, given the accessibility tools and infrastructure are shared with GNOME and Unity. > > Thanks, and I really appreciate your understanding, and support. > > Luke > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp From frederik at gladhorn.de Wed Jul 24 15:35:21 2013 From: frederik at gladhorn.de (Frederik Gladhorn) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 17:35:21 +0200 Subject: [orca-list] [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <008601ce8874$5a5cad10$0f160730$@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EFD98D.6070102@gmail.com> <008601ce8874$5a5cad10$0f160730$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9566972.BPWSUTbycG@varney> Onsdag 24. juli 2013 08.47.34 skrev Alex Midence: > Very true. The thing that I want to test is editable text areas in QT. > That was the biggest problem I saw last year when I was trying out KDE. If > you were in Kate or Kmail and there was some text you wanted to put in > either because you were editing a file or filling out a form of some kind, > Orca couldn't read it back to you. If it was a field you were filling in, > you could tab away and backtab back to it and Orca would speak its contents > but, individual character by character or word by word navigation was not > possible at the time. I hope that's gotten better since then. I haven't > looked at it since May or June of last year, I think. It is a very > important piece of the puzzle. For Kate it would be great if I could get bug reports with an easy description on https://bugs.kde.org . Another interesting thing to try would be Qt Creator - which is probably quite complex to test, but for me the editor pretty much works with Orca. Or as a simpler test the text editor example that is shipped with Qt 5 (examples/widgets/richtext/textedit). In general using one of the many examples shipped with Qt makes it easier for me to reproduce bugs, feel free to file Qt accessibility bugs on https://bugreports.qt-project.org and make sure to choose "Gui: Accessibility" as component. Generally the text interfaces should be much better in Qt 5 compared to Qt 4, but need some testing. KMail is using WebKit and is not expected to work all that great (even though Jose made it work much better than before). Greetings Frederik > > > > Alex M > > > > From: Krishnakant Mane [mailto:krmane at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 8:42 AM > To: Alex Midence > Cc: 'Frederik Gladhorn'; kde-accessibility at kde.org; > vinux-support at googlegroups.com; 'Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List'; > orca-list at gnome.org > Subject: Re: [orca-list] [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to > Mir and QT > > > > This essentially means we must try things pretty early on and start > reporting bugs agressively. > happy hacking. > Krishnakant. > > On 07/24/2013 06:37 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > > Wonderful news! I certainly feel better for it. Thanks for all your hard > work on qt-at-spi. > > > > Alex M > > > > > > From: Frederik Gladhorn [mailto:frederik at gladhorn.de] > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 3:21 AM > To: kde-accessibility at kde.org > Cc: Alex Midence; orca-list at gnome.org; vinux-support at googlegroups.com; > Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT > > > > Hello, > > > > On Tuesday 23. July 2013 13.23.47 Alex Midence wrote: > > > Hi, all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in the > > near > > > future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone know the current > > > > state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all disappointed to find > > > > out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu 12.04 and it is believed that > > > > Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's wonderfully accessible legacy. This was > > > > supposed to soothe our ruffled feathers when 12.10 and 13.04 came out with > > > > Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, now, I am curious to know > > > > if the timetable for that level of accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will > > > > need to be pushed back even more in light of this development. Please see > > > > link below: > > > > > > > > > Qt 5 contains all the accessibility code that was used for Qt 4, including > the plugin qt-at-spi which will then no longer be needed. Many things have > also been improved since we learned from finally making Qt 4 accessible. > > All in all this means that the Qt 5 based Unity should be able to reach the > level of the old Unity and hopefully exceed it. Of course that's still up to > the Unity developers and probably a fix here or there in Qt, but generally > I would expect things to look good. > > > > Greetings > > Frederik > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Alex M > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp From mengualjeanphi at free.fr Wed Jul 24 16:00:33 2013 From: mengualjeanphi at free.fr (Jean-Philippe MENGUAL) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 18:00:33 +0200 Subject: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <51EEE9CD.2040909@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <20130723202255.GB11651@HP> <51EEE9CD.2040909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130724160033.GA4050@HP> Hi, On mardi 23 juil. 2013 à 15:38:37 (-0500), Christopher Chaltain wrote: > In Unity, you can use the alt+f10 key to bring up the global menus, > arrow left to get to the devices pull down and then down arrow to > shutdown. Excellent! Thanks! it works fine. But given there's a desktop, is it possible to create launchers on the desktop? I tried via Application key but I get nothing. I tried shift-F10, all crashed. Is there a solution or isn't ft designed for this? Thanks for your answer. Regards, > > Note that Vinux 4.0 is based on Ubuntu 12.04 which runs Unity 2D by > default. Your statement, "Vinux in 13.4 is confusing. > > On 07/23/2013 03:22 PM, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote: > >Hi, > > > >For the unity iN Vinux 13.4, how do you do to shut down the computer? I found > >with gnome, but not with Unity. > > > >Moreover, on gnome-shell, is there some doc about accessibility and using it > >with the keyboard with news (Start key, Tab key, etc.)? > > > >Thanks > > > >Regards, > > > >On mardi 23 juil. 2013 à 14:58:01 (-0500), Christopher Chaltain wrote: > >>Unity 2D was pulled from Ubuntu 12.10 and not Ubuntu 12.04. The plan > >>to focus accessibility efforts in Ubuntu on the LTS releases was > >>meant to provide the best accessibility solution with the resources > >>available. This was a transparent decision made with the best > >>information at the time. Obviously, desktop plans have changed since > >>then. This was not a statement or move just to placate blind Ubuntu > >>users as your message implies. > >> > >>On 07/23/2013 01:23 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > >>>Hi, all, > >>> > >>>It looks like Ubuntu?s Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in the > >>>near future. It looks like they?ll be using QT5. Does anyone know the > >>>current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all disappointed > >>>to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu 12.04 and it is > >>>believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it?s wonderfully accessible > >>>legacy. This was supposed to soothe our ruffled feathers when 12.10 and > >>>13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, > >>>now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of > >>>accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even more > >>>in light of this development. Please see link below: > >>> > >>>http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced > >>> > >>>Regards, > >>> > >>>Alex M > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>orca-list mailing list > >>>orca-list at gnome.org > >>>https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > >>>Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > >>>The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > >>>The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > >>>Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > >>>Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > >>> > >> > >>-- > >>Christopher (CJ) > >>chaltain at Gmail > >>_______________________________________________ > >>orca-list mailing list > >>orca-list at gnome.org > >>https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > >>Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > >>The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > >>The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > >>Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > >>Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > > -- > Christopher (CJ) > chaltain at Gmail > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp From texou at actux.eu.org Wed Jul 24 16:07:33 2013 From: texou at actux.eu.org (Jean-Philippe MENGUAL) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 18:07:33 +0200 Subject: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <51EEE9CD.2040909@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <20130723202255.GB11651@HP> <51EEE9CD.2040909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130724160733.GB4050@HP> Hi, On mardi 23 juil. 2013 à 15:38:37 (-0500), Christopher Chaltain wrote: > In Unity, you can use the alt+f10 key to bring up the global menus, > arrow left to get to the devices pull down and then down arrow to > shutdown. Excellent! Thanks! it works fine. But given there's a desktop, is it possible to create launchers on the desktop? I tried via Application key but I get nothing. I tried shift-F10, all crashed. Is there a solution or isn't ft designed for this? Thanks for your answer. Regards, > > Note that Vinux 4.0 is based on Ubuntu 12.04 which runs Unity 2D by > default. Your statement, "Vinux in 13.4 is confusing. > > On 07/23/2013 03:22 PM, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote: > >Hi, > > > >For the unity iN Vinux 13.4, how do you do to shut down the computer? I found > >with gnome, but not with Unity. > > > >Moreover, on gnome-shell, is there some doc about accessibility and using it > >with the keyboard with news (Start key, Tab key, etc.)? > > > >Thanks > > > >Regards, > > > >On mardi 23 juil. 2013 à 14:58:01 (-0500), Christopher Chaltain wrote: > >>Unity 2D was pulled from Ubuntu 12.10 and not Ubuntu 12.04. The plan > >>to focus accessibility efforts in Ubuntu on the LTS releases was > >>meant to provide the best accessibility solution with the resources > >>available. This was a transparent decision made with the best > >>information at the time. Obviously, desktop plans have changed since > >>then. This was not a statement or move just to placate blind Ubuntu > >>users as your message implies. > >> > >>On 07/23/2013 01:23 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > >>>Hi, all, > >>> > >>>It looks like Ubuntu?s Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in the > >>>near future. It looks like they?ll be using QT5. Does anyone know the > >>>current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all disappointed > >>>to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu 12.04 and it is > >>>believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it?s wonderfully accessible > >>>legacy. This was supposed to soothe our ruffled feathers when 12.10 and > >>>13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, > >>>now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of > >>>accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even more > >>>in light of this development. Please see link below: > >>> > >>>http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced > >>> > >>>Regards, > >>> > >>>Alex M > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>orca-list mailing list > >>>orca-list at gnome.org > >>>https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > >>>Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > >>>The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > >>>The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > >>>Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > >>>Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > >>> > >> > >>-- > >>Christopher (CJ) > >>chaltain at Gmail > >>_______________________________________________ > >>orca-list mailing list > >>orca-list at gnome.org > >>https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > >>Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > >>The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > >>The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > >>Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > >>Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > > -- > Christopher (CJ) > chaltain at Gmail > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp From chaltain at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 03:38:11 2013 From: chaltain at gmail.com (Christopher J Chaltain) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 22:38:11 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <008101ce8873$7b263080$71729180$@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> <51EF4B0E.3050303@gmail.com> <20130724040447.GA24645@acapella> <008101ce8873$7b263080$71729180$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51EF4C23.4050103@gmail.com> I agree it's unfortunate that Luke is the only one working on Unity accessibility, but there is a big difference between Canonical and Apple or Google. Apple is the wealthiest company in the world. Google is also a large company and is also quite profitable. Apple and Google are already well established players in the mobile space. Neither the iPhone nor Android were accessible when they were first released. Canonical is a tiny company, less than 600 employees, and is still not profitable after being around for about eight years or so. It's still trying to break into the mobile market. I'm not defending Canonical here. I too wish that they would invest more in accessibility development. I'm just pointing out that circumstances right now between Canonical and Apple/Google are quite a bit different. I think Canonical focus right now is to just get a viable product out into the market place. I'm sure that once that happens and it becomes successful, they'll invest more in accessibility, just as Apple and Google have. In some ways, this is analogous to Microsoft and Windows Phone. MS's priority right now is to become relevant in the mobile space. Once that happens then I think accessibility will move up higher on their priority queue. On 07/24/2013 08:41 AM, Alex Midence wrote: > Hi, Luke, > > Just to be clear, I don't think and have never thought you were part of the > problem. What I do think is that it sucks that you are the only one having > to do all this work. They really should hire you some help. There is only > so much one person can do and a11y is a big job. Apple has a full on team > working on Voiceover. Google has Dr. Raman and his assistant and probably > others I don't know about working on Android accessibility. If canonical is > going to expand into all these other markets, I don't see why they can't > hire you a couple of assistants to help distribute the workload. However, > those decisions are beyond our control. Speaking for myself, I am > personally very appreciative of all the work you have put in. > > > Best regards, > Alex M > > -----Original Message----- > From: Luke Yelavich [mailto:themuso at ubuntu.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 11:05 PM > To: Alex Midence > Cc: Christopher Chaltain; vinux-support at googlegroups.com; 'Ubuntu > Accessibility Mailing List'; orca-list at gnome.org > Subject: Re: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to > Mir and QT > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 01:33:34PM EST, Alex Midence wrote: >> Also, for the record, I fully recognize and appreciate all the hard >> work of the developers of the Ubuntu community who freely give of >> their time to make things accessible. However, it was disappointing >> to finally have gotten a very accessible port of Unity in 12.04 only >> to be told that we were back to poor a11y in other versions of the >> distro for at the very least 2 full years. > For the record, I was disappointed as well. I expressed my desire for Unity > to stick with using Qt at the time, given the accessibility advantages it > brought for one, and the fact that it would have made maintaining unity > easier as the nux GUI toolkit wouldn't also need to be maintained, and Qt is > well established etc. > > I am the only developer working for Canonical who spends at least some of > the time working on accessibility issues. I say some of the time, because I > do have other duties, in fact the primary reason why I was hired was not to > work exclusively on accessibility, although the powers that be are ok with > me doing so. > > Having said that, my big focus for the next 10-12 months will almost > exclusively be getting Qt5, Mir, and Unity as accessible an environment as > one person can possibly manage. Qt5 helps somewhat, but the specific parts > of Qt that are being used for the new Unity still have some rough spots when > it comes to accessibility, and there is also the changing graphics stack and > everythign that goes with it to deal with. > > Given these changes, and given I am the only person who is likely going to > be working on all of this, I cannot really promise anything, given the work > that is required, and given the time and resources, or possibly lack there > of, available to do so. I do really appreciate that you all want regularly > updated, accessible distro releases that have the latest accessibility > crack, but please keep in mind just how many of us in the wider *nix > accessibility community there are, and also keep in mind how many of us are > involved with some form of active development in the area, and if you want > to dig deeper, think about the number of us working on GUI desktop > accessibility of some kind. > > I try to take the approach of under promising, and at least delivering, and > if I can over deliver, than thats great. > > In the meantime, there is the Ubuntu GNOME remix, with GNOME shell, wich > does work quite well these days. I'll do my best to try and fix any issues > people may notice with that release, given the accessibility tools and > infrastructure are shared with GNOME and Unity. > > Thanks, and I really appreciate your understanding, and support. > > Luke > -- Christopher (CJ) chaltain at Gmail From albert.e.sten_clanton at verizon.net Wed Jul 24 16:57:23 2013 From: albert.e.sten_clanton at verizon.net (Al Sten-Clanton) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 12:57:23 -0400 Subject: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <51EF4C23.4050103@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> <51EF4B0E.3050303@gmail.com> <20130724040447.GA24645@acapella> <008101ce8873$7b263080$71729180$@gmail.com> <51EF4C23.4050103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51F00773.7010303@verizon.net> It strikes me that, from the perspective you're describing, a "viable product" apparently does not include accessibility as a matter of course. (I'm not saying that's your own view, but only that this is the view you describe--all too well and concisely.) Until our access needs are deemed equal to the access needs of those who use the standard monitor and other tools, the attitude in the business will be wrong. Tell me if I'm mistaken, but I think I heard recently that Apple's recent foray into accessibility resulted from a law suit. (I say "recent foray" because there was a period during the 1980s when it provided some speech output at least.) Does anybody know for sure whether this is right or wrong? Al On 07/23/2013 11:38 PM, Christopher J Chaltain wrote: > I agree it's unfortunate that Luke is the only one working on Unity > accessibility, but there is a big difference between Canonical and Apple > or Google. Apple is the wealthiest company in the world. Google is also > a large company and is also quite profitable. Apple and Google are > already well established players in the mobile space. Neither the iPhone > nor Android were accessible when they were first released. Canonical is > a tiny company, less than 600 employees, and is still not profitable > after being around for about eight years or so. It's still trying to > break into the mobile market. > > I'm not defending Canonical here. I too wish that they would invest more > in accessibility development. I'm just pointing out that circumstances > right now between Canonical and Apple/Google are quite a bit different. > I think Canonical focus right now is to just get a viable product out > into the market place. I'm sure that once that happens and it becomes > successful, they'll invest more in accessibility, just as Apple and > Google have. In some ways, this is analogous to Microsoft and Windows > Phone. MS's priority right now is to become relevant in the mobile > space. Once that happens then I think accessibility will move up higher > on their priority queue. > > On 07/24/2013 08:41 AM, Alex Midence wrote: >> Hi, Luke, >> >> Just to be clear, I don't think and have never thought you were part >> of the >> problem. What I do think is that it sucks that you are the only one >> having >> to do all this work. They really should hire you some help. There is >> only >> so much one person can do and a11y is a big job. Apple has a full on >> team >> working on Voiceover. Google has Dr. Raman and his assistant and >> probably >> others I don't know about working on Android accessibility. If >> canonical is >> going to expand into all these other markets, I don't see why they can't >> hire you a couple of assistants to help distribute the workload. >> However, >> those decisions are beyond our control. Speaking for myself, I am >> personally very appreciative of all the work you have put in. >> >> >> Best regards, >> Alex M >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Luke Yelavich [mailto:themuso at ubuntu.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 11:05 PM >> To: Alex Midence >> Cc: Christopher Chaltain; vinux-support at googlegroups.com; 'Ubuntu >> Accessibility Mailing List'; orca-list at gnome.org >> Subject: Re: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to >> Mir and QT >> >> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 01:33:34PM EST, Alex Midence wrote: >>> Also, for the record, I fully recognize and appreciate all the hard >>> work of the developers of the Ubuntu community who freely give of >>> their time to make things accessible. However, it was disappointing >>> to finally have gotten a very accessible port of Unity in 12.04 only >>> to be told that we were back to poor a11y in other versions of the >>> distro for at the very least 2 full years. >> For the record, I was disappointed as well. I expressed my desire for >> Unity >> to stick with using Qt at the time, given the accessibility advantages it >> brought for one, and the fact that it would have made maintaining unity >> easier as the nux GUI toolkit wouldn't also need to be maintained, and >> Qt is >> well established etc. >> >> I am the only developer working for Canonical who spends at least some of >> the time working on accessibility issues. I say some of the time, >> because I >> do have other duties, in fact the primary reason why I was hired was >> not to >> work exclusively on accessibility, although the powers that be are ok >> with >> me doing so. >> >> Having said that, my big focus for the next 10-12 months will almost >> exclusively be getting Qt5, Mir, and Unity as accessible an >> environment as >> one person can possibly manage. Qt5 helps somewhat, but the specific >> parts >> of Qt that are being used for the new Unity still have some rough >> spots when >> it comes to accessibility, and there is also the changing graphics >> stack and >> everythign that goes with it to deal with. >> >> Given these changes, and given I am the only person who is likely >> going to >> be working on all of this, I cannot really promise anything, given the >> work >> that is required, and given the time and resources, or possibly lack >> there >> of, available to do so. I do really appreciate that you all want >> regularly >> updated, accessible distro releases that have the latest accessibility >> crack, but please keep in mind just how many of us in the wider *nix >> accessibility community there are, and also keep in mind how many of >> us are >> involved with some form of active development in the area, and if you >> want >> to dig deeper, think about the number of us working on GUI desktop >> accessibility of some kind. >> >> I try to take the approach of under promising, and at least >> delivering, and >> if I can over deliver, than thats great. >> >> In the meantime, there is the Ubuntu GNOME remix, with GNOME shell, wich >> does work quite well these days. I'll do my best to try and fix any >> issues >> people may notice with that release, given the accessibility tools and >> infrastructure are shared with GNOME and Unity. >> >> Thanks, and I really appreciate your understanding, and support. >> >> Luke >> > From alex.midence at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 17:08:32 2013 From: alex.midence at gmail.com (Alex Midence) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 12:08:32 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <9566972.BPWSUTbycG@varney> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EFD98D.6070102@gmail.com> <008601ce8874$5a5cad10$0f160730$@gmail.com> <9566972.BPWSUTbycG@varney> Message-ID: <00bc01ce8890$6dcb47f0$4961d7d0$@gmail.com> I'll create a virtual machine and begin testing before the month is up. Do I need to have something like Fedora Rawhide or Ubuntu 13.10 to test in an environment that will give you valuable data? Alex M -----Original Message----- From: Frederik Gladhorn [mailto:frederik at gladhorn.de] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 10:35 AM To: kde-accessibility at kde.org; 'Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List'; orca-list at gnome.org Cc: Alex Midence; 'Krishnakant Mane' Subject: Re: [orca-list] [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT Onsdag 24. juli 2013 08.47.34 skrev Alex Midence: > Very true. The thing that I want to test is editable text areas in QT. > That was the biggest problem I saw last year when I was trying out > KDE. If you were in Kate or Kmail and there was some text you wanted > to put in either because you were editing a file or filling out a form > of some kind, Orca couldn't read it back to you. If it was a field > you were filling in, you could tab away and backtab back to it and > Orca would speak its contents but, individual character by character > or word by word navigation was not possible at the time. I hope > that's gotten better since then. I haven't looked at it since May or > June of last year, I think. It is a very important piece of the puzzle. For Kate it would be great if I could get bug reports with an easy description on https://bugs.kde.org . Another interesting thing to try would be Qt Creator - which is probably quite complex to test, but for me the editor pretty much works with Orca. Or as a simpler test the text editor example that is shipped with Qt 5 (examples/widgets/richtext/textedit). In general using one of the many examples shipped with Qt makes it easier for me to reproduce bugs, feel free to file Qt accessibility bugs on https://bugreports.qt-project.org and make sure to choose "Gui: Accessibility" as component. Generally the text interfaces should be much better in Qt 5 compared to Qt 4, but need some testing. KMail is using WebKit and is not expected to work all that great (even though Jose made it work much better than before). Greetings Frederik > > > > Alex M > > > > From: Krishnakant Mane [mailto:krmane at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 8:42 AM > To: Alex Midence > Cc: 'Frederik Gladhorn'; kde-accessibility at kde.org; > vinux-support at googlegroups.com; 'Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List'; > orca-list at gnome.org > Subject: Re: [orca-list] [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to > go to Mir and QT > > > > This essentially means we must try things pretty early on and start > reporting bugs agressively. > happy hacking. > Krishnakant. > > On 07/24/2013 06:37 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > > Wonderful news! I certainly feel better for it. Thanks for all your > hard work on qt-at-spi. > > > > Alex M > > > > > > From: Frederik Gladhorn [mailto:frederik at gladhorn.de] > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 3:21 AM > To: kde-accessibility at kde.org > Cc: Alex Midence; orca-list at gnome.org; vinux-support at googlegroups.com; > Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and > QT > > > > Hello, > > > > On Tuesday 23. July 2013 13.23.47 Alex Midence wrote: > > > Hi, all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in > the > > near > > > future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone know the > current > > > > state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all disappointed to > find > > > > out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu 12.04 and it is believed > that > > > > Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's wonderfully accessible legacy. This > was > > > > supposed to soothe our ruffled feathers when 12.10 and 13.04 came out > with > > > > Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, now, I am curious to > know > > > > if the timetable for that level of accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop > will > > > > need to be pushed back even more in light of this development. Please > see > > > > link below: > > > > > > > > > Qt 5 contains all the accessibility code that was used for Qt 4, > including the plugin qt-at-spi which will then no longer be needed. > Many things have also been improved since we learned from finally making Qt 4 accessible. > > All in all this means that the Qt 5 based Unity should be able to > reach the level of the old Unity and hopefully exceed it. Of course > that's still up to the Unity developers and probably a fix here or > there in Qt, but generally I would expect things to look good. > > > > Greetings > > Frederik > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Alex M > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out > how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp From chaltain at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 17:21:26 2013 From: chaltain at gmail.com (Christopher Chaltain) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 12:21:26 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <51F00773.7010303@verizon.net> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> <51EF4B0E.3050303@gmail.com> <20130724040447.GA24645@acapella> <008101ce8873$7b263080$71729180$@gmail.com> <51EF4C23.4050103@gmail.com> <51F00773.7010303@verizon.net> Message-ID: <51F00D16.6010802@gmail.com> I agree accessibility should be baked in from the beginning. It's cheaper than bolting it on later, opens up more revenue streams, provides positive PR and so on. It's the law here in the US, and just the right thing to do. I wasn't speaking from my own opinion, but just echoing where I think these companies are coming from and why I think their making the investments they are. I can't think of a single smart phone company that introduced an accessible smart phone with they're first offering and that includes Apple, Google, Microsoft and Nokia. I don't like it, but I don't think many companies place accessibility very high on their priority lists as compared to getting a new product into the market place and getting it to a point where it's competitive and profitable. I've heard that Apple had to develop it's own screen reader when Berkley Systems went out of business and no other 3rd party screen reader would develop a screen reader for the Mac. Apple was in danger of losing government contracts because MS had an accessible story while Apple did not. I don't know this first hand, but I would say I have it from reliable sources. Of course, Apple has gone far beyond this in making all of it's products accessible out of the box. I'm not aware of any company losing a government contract because they didn't have an accessible smart phone story, but I suspect this is possible as smart phones become more and more a ubiquitous part of the business world. This is why I suspect MS will address accessibility on their Windows Phone platform at some point. I think they need to get the Windows Phone platform to a point where government agencies start considering asking their employees to use a Windows Phone. Right now, I suspect Windows Phone doesn't have the apps or the market penetration for businesses or government agencies to even consider it as an option. I've heard good things about the Windows Phone platform though, and I do know it's becoming a viable third option behind Apple and Android. The real point of my email though was to be careful making analogies between Canonical and Apple/Google. If we assume Canonical has 500 employees with one person working on accessibility (I know I'm being optimistic.) then how does this compare to Apple and it's ratio of total employees to those working on accessibility? Also, don't forget that Apple's first smart phone was not accessible. It wasn't until this was successful in the market place and competing with Nokia and Blackberry before they added accessibility. Ditto for Google. On 07/24/2013 11:57 AM, Al Sten-Clanton wrote: > It strikes me that, from the perspective you're describing, a "viable > product" apparently does not include accessibility as a matter of > course. (I'm not saying that's your own view, but only that this is the > view you describe--all too well and concisely.) Until our access needs > are deemed equal to the access needs of those who use the standard > monitor and other tools, the attitude in the business will be wrong. > > Tell me if I'm mistaken, but I think I heard recently that Apple's > recent foray into accessibility resulted from a law suit. (I say > "recent foray" because there was a period during the 1980s when it > provided some speech output at least.) Does anybody know for sure > whether this is right or wrong? > > Al > > On 07/23/2013 11:38 PM, Christopher J Chaltain wrote: >> I agree it's unfortunate that Luke is the only one working on Unity >> accessibility, but there is a big difference between Canonical and Apple >> or Google. Apple is the wealthiest company in the world. Google is also >> a large company and is also quite profitable. Apple and Google are >> already well established players in the mobile space. Neither the iPhone >> nor Android were accessible when they were first released. Canonical is >> a tiny company, less than 600 employees, and is still not profitable >> after being around for about eight years or so. It's still trying to >> break into the mobile market. >> >> I'm not defending Canonical here. I too wish that they would invest more >> in accessibility development. I'm just pointing out that circumstances >> right now between Canonical and Apple/Google are quite a bit different. >> I think Canonical focus right now is to just get a viable product out >> into the market place. I'm sure that once that happens and it becomes >> successful, they'll invest more in accessibility, just as Apple and >> Google have. In some ways, this is analogous to Microsoft and Windows >> Phone. MS's priority right now is to become relevant in the mobile >> space. Once that happens then I think accessibility will move up higher >> on their priority queue. >> >> On 07/24/2013 08:41 AM, Alex Midence wrote: >>> Hi, Luke, >>> >>> Just to be clear, I don't think and have never thought you were part >>> of the >>> problem. What I do think is that it sucks that you are the only one >>> having >>> to do all this work. They really should hire you some help. There is >>> only >>> so much one person can do and a11y is a big job. Apple has a full on >>> team >>> working on Voiceover. Google has Dr. Raman and his assistant and >>> probably >>> others I don't know about working on Android accessibility. If >>> canonical is >>> going to expand into all these other markets, I don't see why they can't >>> hire you a couple of assistants to help distribute the workload. >>> However, >>> those decisions are beyond our control. Speaking for myself, I am >>> personally very appreciative of all the work you have put in. >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Alex M >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Luke Yelavich [mailto:themuso at ubuntu.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 11:05 PM >>> To: Alex Midence >>> Cc: Christopher Chaltain; vinux-support at googlegroups.com; 'Ubuntu >>> Accessibility Mailing List'; orca-list at gnome.org >>> Subject: Re: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to >>> go to >>> Mir and QT >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 01:33:34PM EST, Alex Midence wrote: >>>> Also, for the record, I fully recognize and appreciate all the hard >>>> work of the developers of the Ubuntu community who freely give of >>>> their time to make things accessible. However, it was disappointing >>>> to finally have gotten a very accessible port of Unity in 12.04 only >>>> to be told that we were back to poor a11y in other versions of the >>>> distro for at the very least 2 full years. >>> For the record, I was disappointed as well. I expressed my desire for >>> Unity >>> to stick with using Qt at the time, given the accessibility >>> advantages it >>> brought for one, and the fact that it would have made maintaining unity >>> easier as the nux GUI toolkit wouldn't also need to be maintained, and >>> Qt is >>> well established etc. >>> >>> I am the only developer working for Canonical who spends at least >>> some of >>> the time working on accessibility issues. I say some of the time, >>> because I >>> do have other duties, in fact the primary reason why I was hired was >>> not to >>> work exclusively on accessibility, although the powers that be are ok >>> with >>> me doing so. >>> >>> Having said that, my big focus for the next 10-12 months will almost >>> exclusively be getting Qt5, Mir, and Unity as accessible an >>> environment as >>> one person can possibly manage. Qt5 helps somewhat, but the specific >>> parts >>> of Qt that are being used for the new Unity still have some rough >>> spots when >>> it comes to accessibility, and there is also the changing graphics >>> stack and >>> everythign that goes with it to deal with. >>> >>> Given these changes, and given I am the only person who is likely >>> going to >>> be working on all of this, I cannot really promise anything, given the >>> work >>> that is required, and given the time and resources, or possibly lack >>> there >>> of, available to do so. I do really appreciate that you all want >>> regularly >>> updated, accessible distro releases that have the latest accessibility >>> crack, but please keep in mind just how many of us in the wider *nix >>> accessibility community there are, and also keep in mind how many of >>> us are >>> involved with some form of active development in the area, and if you >>> want >>> to dig deeper, think about the number of us working on GUI desktop >>> accessibility of some kind. >>> >>> I try to take the approach of under promising, and at least >>> delivering, and >>> if I can over deliver, than thats great. >>> >>> In the meantime, there is the Ubuntu GNOME remix, with GNOME shell, wich >>> does work quite well these days. I'll do my best to try and fix any >>> issues >>> people may notice with that release, given the accessibility tools and >>> infrastructure are shared with GNOME and Unity. >>> >>> Thanks, and I really appreciate your understanding, and support. >>> >>> Luke >>> >> -- Christopher (CJ) chaltain at Gmail From chaltain at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 17:25:34 2013 From: chaltain at gmail.com (Christopher Chaltain) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 12:25:34 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <20130724160733.GB4050@HP> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <20130723202255.GB11651@HP> <51EEE9CD.2040909@gmail.com> <20130724160733.GB4050@HP> Message-ID: <51F00E0E.3030601@gmail.com> I haven't done this myself, but since the Desktop is just a folder in your home directory, you can place symbolic links to applications you want to start into that folder. I did this just now with a link to /usr/lib/thunderbird/thunderbird.sh. On 07/24/2013 11:07 AM, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote: > Hi, > > On mardi 23 juil. 2013 à 15:38:37 (-0500), Christopher Chaltain wrote: >> In Unity, you can use the alt+f10 key to bring up the global menus, >> arrow left to get to the devices pull down and then down arrow to >> shutdown. > > Excellent! Thanks! it works fine. But given there's a desktop, is it possible to > create launchers on the desktop? I tried via Application key but I get nothing. > I tried shift-F10, all crashed. Is there a solution or isn't ft designed for > this? > > Thanks for your answer. > > Regards, > >> >> Note that Vinux 4.0 is based on Ubuntu 12.04 which runs Unity 2D by >> default. Your statement, "Vinux in 13.4 is confusing. >> >> On 07/23/2013 03:22 PM, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> For the unity iN Vinux 13.4, how do you do to shut down the computer? I found >>> with gnome, but not with Unity. >>> >>> Moreover, on gnome-shell, is there some doc about accessibility and using it >>> with the keyboard with news (Start key, Tab key, etc.)? >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> On mardi 23 juil. 2013 à 14:58:01 (-0500), Christopher Chaltain wrote: >>>> Unity 2D was pulled from Ubuntu 12.10 and not Ubuntu 12.04. The plan >>>> to focus accessibility efforts in Ubuntu on the LTS releases was >>>> meant to provide the best accessibility solution with the resources >>>> available. This was a transparent decision made with the best >>>> information at the time. Obviously, desktop plans have changed since >>>> then. This was not a statement or move just to placate blind Ubuntu >>>> users as your message implies. >>>> >>>> On 07/23/2013 01:23 PM, Alex Midence wrote: >>>>> Hi, all, >>>>> >>>>> It looks like Ubuntu?s Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in the >>>>> near future. It looks like they?ll be using QT5. Does anyone know the >>>>> current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all disappointed >>>>> to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu 12.04 and it is >>>>> believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it?s wonderfully accessible >>>>> legacy. This was supposed to soothe our ruffled feathers when 12.10 and >>>>> 13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, >>>>> now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of >>>>> accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even more >>>>> in light of this development. Please see link below: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Alex M >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> orca-list mailing list >>>>> orca-list at gnome.org >>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list >>>>> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. >>>>> The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html >>>>> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions >>>>> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org >>>>> Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Christopher (CJ) >>>> chaltain at Gmail >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> orca-list mailing list >>>> orca-list at gnome.org >>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list >>>> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. >>>> The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html >>>> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions >>>> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org >>>> Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp >> >> -- >> Christopher (CJ) >> chaltain at Gmail >> _______________________________________________ >> orca-list mailing list >> orca-list at gnome.org >> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list >> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. >> The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html >> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions >> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org >> Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp -- Christopher (CJ) chaltain at Gmail From frederik at gladhorn.de Wed Jul 24 17:36:18 2013 From: frederik at gladhorn.de (Frederik Gladhorn) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 19:36:18 +0200 Subject: [orca-list] [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <00bc01ce8890$6dcb47f0$4961d7d0$@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <9566972.BPWSUTbycG@varney> <00bc01ce8890$6dcb47f0$4961d7d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2185445.dGpk7EumiB@varney> Onsdag 24. juli 2013 12.08.32 skrev Alex Midence: > I'll create a virtual machine and begin testing before the month is up. Do > I need to have something like Fedora Rawhide or Ubuntu 13.10 to test in an > environment that will give you valuable data? No, any reasonalbly recent linux distro should work just fine. I'd go with something not too old so that at-spi-2 works. You can qet Qt 5 installers here: http://download.qt-project.org/official_releases but they will not be accessible. I guess there are more and more distribution packages showing up these days, so hopefully that provides a convenient way to test. Alternatively you can build from source which is somewhat time consuming. Cheers, Frederik > > Alex M > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederik Gladhorn [mailto:frederik at gladhorn.de] > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 10:35 AM > To: kde-accessibility at kde.org; 'Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List'; > orca-list at gnome.org > Cc: Alex Midence; 'Krishnakant Mane' > Subject: Re: [orca-list] [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to > Mir and QT > > Onsdag 24. juli 2013 08.47.34 skrev Alex Midence: > > Very true. The thing that I want to test is editable text areas in QT. > > That was the biggest problem I saw last year when I was trying out > > KDE. If you were in Kate or Kmail and there was some text you wanted > > to put in either because you were editing a file or filling out a form > > of some kind, Orca couldn't read it back to you. If it was a field > > you were filling in, you could tab away and backtab back to it and > > Orca would speak its contents but, individual character by character > > or word by word navigation was not possible at the time. I hope > > that's gotten better since then. I haven't looked at it since May or > > June of last year, I think. It is a very important piece of the puzzle. > > For Kate it would be great if I could get bug reports with an easy > description on https://bugs.kde.org . > > Another interesting thing to try would be Qt Creator - which is probably > quite complex to test, but for me the editor pretty much works with Orca. Or > as a simpler test the text editor example that is shipped with Qt 5 > (examples/widgets/richtext/textedit). In general using one of the many > examples shipped with Qt makes it easier for me to reproduce bugs, feel > free to file Qt accessibility bugs on https://bugreports.qt-project.org and > make sure to choose "Gui: Accessibility" as component. > > Generally the text interfaces should be much better in Qt 5 compared to Qt > 4, but need some testing. > > KMail is using WebKit and is not expected to work all that great (even > though Jose made it work much better than before). > > Greetings > Frederik > > > Alex M > > > > > > > > From: Krishnakant Mane [mailto:krmane at gmail.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 8:42 AM > > To: Alex Midence > > Cc: 'Frederik Gladhorn'; kde-accessibility at kde.org; > > vinux-support at googlegroups.com; 'Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List'; > > orca-list at gnome.org > > Subject: Re: [orca-list] [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to > > go to Mir and QT > > > > > > > > This essentially means we must try things pretty early on and start > > reporting bugs agressively. > > happy hacking. > > Krishnakant. > > > > On 07/24/2013 06:37 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > > > > Wonderful news! I certainly feel better for it. Thanks for all your > > hard work on qt-at-spi. > > > > > > > > Alex M > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Frederik Gladhorn [mailto:frederik at gladhorn.de] > > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 3:21 AM > > To: kde-accessibility at kde.org > > Cc: Alex Midence; orca-list at gnome.org; vinux-support at googlegroups.com; > > Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and > > QT > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > On Tuesday 23. July 2013 13.23.47 Alex Midence wrote: > > > > > > Hi, all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in > > the > > > > near > > > > > > future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone know the > > current > > > > > > > > state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all disappointed to > > find > > > > > > > > out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu 12.04 and it is believed > > that > > > > > > > > Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's wonderfully accessible legacy. This > > was > > > > > > > > supposed to soothe our ruffled feathers when 12.10 and 13.04 came out > > with > > > > > > > > Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, now, I am curious to > > know > > > > > > > > if the timetable for that level of accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop > > will > > > > > > > > need to be pushed back even more in light of this development. Please > > see > > > > > > > > link below: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Qt 5 contains all the accessibility code that was used for Qt 4, > > including the plugin qt-at-spi which will then no longer be needed. > > Many things have also been improved since we learned from finally making > > Qt 4 accessible. > > > All in all this means that the Qt 5 based Unity should be able to > > reach the level of the old Unity and hopefully exceed it. Of course > > that's still up to the Unity developers and probably a fix here or > > there in Qt, but generally I would expect things to look good. > > > > > > > > Greetings > > > > Frederik > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alex M > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > orca-list mailing list > > orca-list at gnome.org > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > > The manual is at > > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out > > how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp From krmane at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 17:29:34 2013 From: krmane at gmail.com (Krishnakant Mane) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 22:59:34 +0530 Subject: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <51F00D16.6010802@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> <51EF4B0E.3050303@gmail.com> <20130724040447.GA24645@acapella> <008101ce8873$7b263080$71729180$@gmail.com> <51EF4C23.4050103@gmail.com> <51F00773.7010303@verizon.net> <51F00D16.6010802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51F00EFE.2000407@gmail.com> I think the issue here is the total mindset and also the fact that many so called smart business men don't realize the business they can generate out of accessibility. Firstly, there are those who don't *still* beleive that a totaly blind person like me can actually use a Phone, let alone a computer. And I am refering to highly qualified engineers or business personals. Secondly, how many would go one step ahead and say "let's add a million more probable custommers by making the device accessible"? That's why accessibility takes a back seet. happy hacking. Krishnakant. On 07/24/2013 10:51 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote: > I agree accessibility should be baked in from the beginning. It's > cheaper than bolting it on later, opens up more revenue streams, > provides positive PR and so on. It's the law here in the US, and just > the right thing to do. I wasn't speaking from my own opinion, but just > echoing where I think these companies are coming from and why I think > their making the investments they are. I can't think of a single smart > phone company that introduced an accessible smart phone with they're > first offering and that includes Apple, Google, Microsoft and Nokia. I > don't like it, but I don't think many companies place accessibility > very high on their priority lists as compared to getting a new product > into the market place and getting it to a point where it's competitive > and profitable. > > I've heard that Apple had to develop it's own screen reader when > Berkley Systems went out of business and no other 3rd party screen > reader would develop a screen reader for the Mac. Apple was in danger > of losing government contracts because MS had an accessible story > while Apple did not. I don't know this first hand, but I would say I > have it from reliable sources. Of course, Apple has gone far beyond > this in making all of it's products accessible out of the box. > > I'm not aware of any company losing a government contract because they > didn't have an accessible smart phone story, but I suspect this is > possible as smart phones become more and more a ubiquitous part of the > business world. This is why I suspect MS will address accessibility on > their Windows Phone platform at some point. I think they need to get > the Windows Phone platform to a point where government agencies start > considering asking their employees to use a Windows Phone. Right now, > I suspect Windows Phone doesn't have the apps or the market > penetration for businesses or government agencies to even consider it > as an option. I've heard good things about the Windows Phone platform > though, and I do know it's becoming a viable third option behind Apple > and Android. > > The real point of my email though was to be careful making analogies > between Canonical and Apple/Google. If we assume Canonical has 500 > employees with one person working on accessibility (I know I'm being > optimistic.) then how does this compare to Apple and it's ratio of > total employees to those working on accessibility? Also, don't forget > that Apple's first smart phone was not accessible. It wasn't until > this was successful in the market place and competing with Nokia and > Blackberry before they added accessibility. Ditto for Google. > > On 07/24/2013 11:57 AM, Al Sten-Clanton wrote: >> It strikes me that, from the perspective you're describing, a "viable >> product" apparently does not include accessibility as a matter of >> course. (I'm not saying that's your own view, but only that this is the >> view you describe--all too well and concisely.) Until our access needs >> are deemed equal to the access needs of those who use the standard >> monitor and other tools, the attitude in the business will be wrong. >> >> Tell me if I'm mistaken, but I think I heard recently that Apple's >> recent foray into accessibility resulted from a law suit. (I say >> "recent foray" because there was a period during the 1980s when it >> provided some speech output at least.) Does anybody know for sure >> whether this is right or wrong? >> >> Al >> >> On 07/23/2013 11:38 PM, Christopher J Chaltain wrote: >>> I agree it's unfortunate that Luke is the only one working on Unity >>> accessibility, but there is a big difference between Canonical and >>> Apple >>> or Google. Apple is the wealthiest company in the world. Google is also >>> a large company and is also quite profitable. Apple and Google are >>> already well established players in the mobile space. Neither the >>> iPhone >>> nor Android were accessible when they were first released. Canonical is >>> a tiny company, less than 600 employees, and is still not profitable >>> after being around for about eight years or so. It's still trying to >>> break into the mobile market. >>> >>> I'm not defending Canonical here. I too wish that they would invest >>> more >>> in accessibility development. I'm just pointing out that circumstances >>> right now between Canonical and Apple/Google are quite a bit different. >>> I think Canonical focus right now is to just get a viable product out >>> into the market place. I'm sure that once that happens and it becomes >>> successful, they'll invest more in accessibility, just as Apple and >>> Google have. In some ways, this is analogous to Microsoft and Windows >>> Phone. MS's priority right now is to become relevant in the mobile >>> space. Once that happens then I think accessibility will move up higher >>> on their priority queue. >>> >>> On 07/24/2013 08:41 AM, Alex Midence wrote: >>>> Hi, Luke, >>>> >>>> Just to be clear, I don't think and have never thought you were part >>>> of the >>>> problem. What I do think is that it sucks that you are the only one >>>> having >>>> to do all this work. They really should hire you some help. There is >>>> only >>>> so much one person can do and a11y is a big job. Apple has a full on >>>> team >>>> working on Voiceover. Google has Dr. Raman and his assistant and >>>> probably >>>> others I don't know about working on Android accessibility. If >>>> canonical is >>>> going to expand into all these other markets, I don't see why they >>>> can't >>>> hire you a couple of assistants to help distribute the workload. >>>> However, >>>> those decisions are beyond our control. Speaking for myself, I am >>>> personally very appreciative of all the work you have put in. >>>> >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Alex M >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Luke Yelavich [mailto:themuso at ubuntu.com] >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 11:05 PM >>>> To: Alex Midence >>>> Cc: Christopher Chaltain; vinux-support at googlegroups.com; 'Ubuntu >>>> Accessibility Mailing List'; orca-list at gnome.org >>>> Subject: Re: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to >>>> go to >>>> Mir and QT >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 01:33:34PM EST, Alex Midence wrote: >>>>> Also, for the record, I fully recognize and appreciate all the hard >>>>> work of the developers of the Ubuntu community who freely give of >>>>> their time to make things accessible. However, it was disappointing >>>>> to finally have gotten a very accessible port of Unity in 12.04 only >>>>> to be told that we were back to poor a11y in other versions of the >>>>> distro for at the very least 2 full years. >>>> For the record, I was disappointed as well. I expressed my desire for >>>> Unity >>>> to stick with using Qt at the time, given the accessibility >>>> advantages it >>>> brought for one, and the fact that it would have made maintaining >>>> unity >>>> easier as the nux GUI toolkit wouldn't also need to be maintained, and >>>> Qt is >>>> well established etc. >>>> >>>> I am the only developer working for Canonical who spends at least >>>> some of >>>> the time working on accessibility issues. I say some of the time, >>>> because I >>>> do have other duties, in fact the primary reason why I was hired was >>>> not to >>>> work exclusively on accessibility, although the powers that be are ok >>>> with >>>> me doing so. >>>> >>>> Having said that, my big focus for the next 10-12 months will almost >>>> exclusively be getting Qt5, Mir, and Unity as accessible an >>>> environment as >>>> one person can possibly manage. Qt5 helps somewhat, but the specific >>>> parts >>>> of Qt that are being used for the new Unity still have some rough >>>> spots when >>>> it comes to accessibility, and there is also the changing graphics >>>> stack and >>>> everythign that goes with it to deal with. >>>> >>>> Given these changes, and given I am the only person who is likely >>>> going to >>>> be working on all of this, I cannot really promise anything, given the >>>> work >>>> that is required, and given the time and resources, or possibly lack >>>> there >>>> of, available to do so. I do really appreciate that you all want >>>> regularly >>>> updated, accessible distro releases that have the latest accessibility >>>> crack, but please keep in mind just how many of us in the wider *nix >>>> accessibility community there are, and also keep in mind how many of >>>> us are >>>> involved with some form of active development in the area, and if you >>>> want >>>> to dig deeper, think about the number of us working on GUI desktop >>>> accessibility of some kind. >>>> >>>> I try to take the approach of under promising, and at least >>>> delivering, and >>>> if I can over deliver, than thats great. >>>> >>>> In the meantime, there is the Ubuntu GNOME remix, with GNOME shell, >>>> wich >>>> does work quite well these days. I'll do my best to try and fix any >>>> issues >>>> people may notice with that release, given the accessibility tools and >>>> infrastructure are shared with GNOME and Unity. >>>> >>>> Thanks, and I really appreciate your understanding, and support. >>>> >>>> Luke >>>> >>> > From chaltain at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 20:17:09 2013 From: chaltain at gmail.com (Christopher Chaltain) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 15:17:09 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <51F00EFE.2000407@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> <51EF4B0E.3050303@gmail.com> <20130724040447.GA24645@acapella> <008101ce8873$7b263080$71729180$@gmail.com> <51EF4C23.4050103@gmail.com> <51F00773.7010303@verizon.net> <51F00D16.6010802@gmail.com> <51F00EFE.2000407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51F03645.8080503@gmail.com> I know you didn't say this, but Mark Shuttleworth and Jane Silver are aware that totally blind people can use computers and smart phones. I think you're right in that it's hard for any one to quantify their return on investment into accessibility, even a smart business man or woman. I'm not even sure you could say that Apple has sold a million iPhones they wouldn't have sold otherwise because of VoiceOver and accessibility. Also, selling a million more smart phones has to be prioritized behind selling that first smart phone. Getting a new smart phone with a new operating system into the arena is incredibly hard. Not only is there all of the development that needs to go on (think of all of those apps you take for granted on your current smart phone and realize none of those apps exist yet under Unity) but there's also the fact that you need to get manufacturers and carriers on board and build an ecosystem around a new player in the mobile space. I'm not saying Canonical shouldn't be investing more in accessibility, in fact, I think they should be. I'd like to see them pushing accessibility more in their marketing, be the first smart phone to be accessible right out of the gate and hammer home the fact that ubuntu (the philosophy and operating system) includes blind people. I think this would pay off for Canonical down the road. Whatever anyone thinks of Canonical and Mark Shuttleworth, he is an incredibly successful, bright and driven person, and he has to accomplish an awful lot with limited resources if Ubuntu Touch is going to be successful. Accessibility is only one challenge on his radar. On 07/24/2013 12:29 PM, Krishnakant Mane wrote: > I think the issue here is the total mindset and also the fact that many > so called smart business men don't realize the business they can > generate out of accessibility. > Firstly, there are those who don't *still* beleive that a totaly blind > person like me can actually use a Phone, let alone a computer. > And I am refering to highly qualified engineers or business personals. > Secondly, how many would go one step ahead and say "let's add a million > more probable custommers by making the device accessible"? > That's why accessibility takes a back seet. > happy hacking. > Krishnakant. > > On 07/24/2013 10:51 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote: >> I agree accessibility should be baked in from the beginning. It's >> cheaper than bolting it on later, opens up more revenue streams, >> provides positive PR and so on. It's the law here in the US, and just >> the right thing to do. I wasn't speaking from my own opinion, but just >> echoing where I think these companies are coming from and why I think >> their making the investments they are. I can't think of a single smart >> phone company that introduced an accessible smart phone with they're >> first offering and that includes Apple, Google, Microsoft and Nokia. I >> don't like it, but I don't think many companies place accessibility >> very high on their priority lists as compared to getting a new product >> into the market place and getting it to a point where it's competitive >> and profitable. >> >> I've heard that Apple had to develop it's own screen reader when >> Berkley Systems went out of business and no other 3rd party screen >> reader would develop a screen reader for the Mac. Apple was in danger >> of losing government contracts because MS had an accessible story >> while Apple did not. I don't know this first hand, but I would say I >> have it from reliable sources. Of course, Apple has gone far beyond >> this in making all of it's products accessible out of the box. >> >> I'm not aware of any company losing a government contract because they >> didn't have an accessible smart phone story, but I suspect this is >> possible as smart phones become more and more a ubiquitous part of the >> business world. This is why I suspect MS will address accessibility on >> their Windows Phone platform at some point. I think they need to get >> the Windows Phone platform to a point where government agencies start >> considering asking their employees to use a Windows Phone. Right now, >> I suspect Windows Phone doesn't have the apps or the market >> penetration for businesses or government agencies to even consider it >> as an option. I've heard good things about the Windows Phone platform >> though, and I do know it's becoming a viable third option behind Apple >> and Android. >> >> The real point of my email though was to be careful making analogies >> between Canonical and Apple/Google. If we assume Canonical has 500 >> employees with one person working on accessibility (I know I'm being >> optimistic.) then how does this compare to Apple and it's ratio of >> total employees to those working on accessibility? Also, don't forget >> that Apple's first smart phone was not accessible. It wasn't until >> this was successful in the market place and competing with Nokia and >> Blackberry before they added accessibility. Ditto for Google. >> >> On 07/24/2013 11:57 AM, Al Sten-Clanton wrote: >>> It strikes me that, from the perspective you're describing, a "viable >>> product" apparently does not include accessibility as a matter of >>> course. (I'm not saying that's your own view, but only that this is the >>> view you describe--all too well and concisely.) Until our access needs >>> are deemed equal to the access needs of those who use the standard >>> monitor and other tools, the attitude in the business will be wrong. >>> >>> Tell me if I'm mistaken, but I think I heard recently that Apple's >>> recent foray into accessibility resulted from a law suit. (I say >>> "recent foray" because there was a period during the 1980s when it >>> provided some speech output at least.) Does anybody know for sure >>> whether this is right or wrong? >>> >>> Al >>> >>> On 07/23/2013 11:38 PM, Christopher J Chaltain wrote: >>>> I agree it's unfortunate that Luke is the only one working on Unity >>>> accessibility, but there is a big difference between Canonical and >>>> Apple >>>> or Google. Apple is the wealthiest company in the world. Google is also >>>> a large company and is also quite profitable. Apple and Google are >>>> already well established players in the mobile space. Neither the >>>> iPhone >>>> nor Android were accessible when they were first released. Canonical is >>>> a tiny company, less than 600 employees, and is still not profitable >>>> after being around for about eight years or so. It's still trying to >>>> break into the mobile market. >>>> >>>> I'm not defending Canonical here. I too wish that they would invest >>>> more >>>> in accessibility development. I'm just pointing out that circumstances >>>> right now between Canonical and Apple/Google are quite a bit different. >>>> I think Canonical focus right now is to just get a viable product out >>>> into the market place. I'm sure that once that happens and it becomes >>>> successful, they'll invest more in accessibility, just as Apple and >>>> Google have. In some ways, this is analogous to Microsoft and Windows >>>> Phone. MS's priority right now is to become relevant in the mobile >>>> space. Once that happens then I think accessibility will move up higher >>>> on their priority queue. >>>> >>>> On 07/24/2013 08:41 AM, Alex Midence wrote: >>>>> Hi, Luke, >>>>> >>>>> Just to be clear, I don't think and have never thought you were part >>>>> of the >>>>> problem. What I do think is that it sucks that you are the only one >>>>> having >>>>> to do all this work. They really should hire you some help. There is >>>>> only >>>>> so much one person can do and a11y is a big job. Apple has a full on >>>>> team >>>>> working on Voiceover. Google has Dr. Raman and his assistant and >>>>> probably >>>>> others I don't know about working on Android accessibility. If >>>>> canonical is >>>>> going to expand into all these other markets, I don't see why they >>>>> can't >>>>> hire you a couple of assistants to help distribute the workload. >>>>> However, >>>>> those decisions are beyond our control. Speaking for myself, I am >>>>> personally very appreciative of all the work you have put in. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> Alex M >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Luke Yelavich [mailto:themuso at ubuntu.com] >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 11:05 PM >>>>> To: Alex Midence >>>>> Cc: Christopher Chaltain; vinux-support at googlegroups.com; 'Ubuntu >>>>> Accessibility Mailing List'; orca-list at gnome.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to >>>>> go to >>>>> Mir and QT >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 01:33:34PM EST, Alex Midence wrote: >>>>>> Also, for the record, I fully recognize and appreciate all the hard >>>>>> work of the developers of the Ubuntu community who freely give of >>>>>> their time to make things accessible. However, it was disappointing >>>>>> to finally have gotten a very accessible port of Unity in 12.04 only >>>>>> to be told that we were back to poor a11y in other versions of the >>>>>> distro for at the very least 2 full years. >>>>> For the record, I was disappointed as well. I expressed my desire for >>>>> Unity >>>>> to stick with using Qt at the time, given the accessibility >>>>> advantages it >>>>> brought for one, and the fact that it would have made maintaining >>>>> unity >>>>> easier as the nux GUI toolkit wouldn't also need to be maintained, and >>>>> Qt is >>>>> well established etc. >>>>> >>>>> I am the only developer working for Canonical who spends at least >>>>> some of >>>>> the time working on accessibility issues. I say some of the time, >>>>> because I >>>>> do have other duties, in fact the primary reason why I was hired was >>>>> not to >>>>> work exclusively on accessibility, although the powers that be are ok >>>>> with >>>>> me doing so. >>>>> >>>>> Having said that, my big focus for the next 10-12 months will almost >>>>> exclusively be getting Qt5, Mir, and Unity as accessible an >>>>> environment as >>>>> one person can possibly manage. Qt5 helps somewhat, but the specific >>>>> parts >>>>> of Qt that are being used for the new Unity still have some rough >>>>> spots when >>>>> it comes to accessibility, and there is also the changing graphics >>>>> stack and >>>>> everythign that goes with it to deal with. >>>>> >>>>> Given these changes, and given I am the only person who is likely >>>>> going to >>>>> be working on all of this, I cannot really promise anything, given the >>>>> work >>>>> that is required, and given the time and resources, or possibly lack >>>>> there >>>>> of, available to do so. I do really appreciate that you all want >>>>> regularly >>>>> updated, accessible distro releases that have the latest accessibility >>>>> crack, but please keep in mind just how many of us in the wider *nix >>>>> accessibility community there are, and also keep in mind how many of >>>>> us are >>>>> involved with some form of active development in the area, and if you >>>>> want >>>>> to dig deeper, think about the number of us working on GUI desktop >>>>> accessibility of some kind. >>>>> >>>>> I try to take the approach of under promising, and at least >>>>> delivering, and >>>>> if I can over deliver, than thats great. >>>>> >>>>> In the meantime, there is the Ubuntu GNOME remix, with GNOME shell, >>>>> wich >>>>> does work quite well these days. I'll do my best to try and fix any >>>>> issues >>>>> people may notice with that release, given the accessibility tools and >>>>> infrastructure are shared with GNOME and Unity. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, and I really appreciate your understanding, and support. >>>>> >>>>> Luke >>>>> >>>> >> > -- Christopher (CJ) chaltain at Gmail From alex.midence at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 20:24:55 2013 From: alex.midence at gmail.com (Alex Midence) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 15:24:55 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <51F03645.8080503@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> <51EF4B0E.3050303@gmail.com> <20130724040447.GA24645@acapella> <008101ce8873$7b263080$71729180$@gmail.com> <51EF4C23.4050103@gmail.com> <51F00773.7010303@verizon.net> <51F00D16.6010802@gmail.com> <51F00EFE.2000407@gmail.com> <51F03645.8080503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00d301ce88ab$dcaf3c60$960db520$@gmail.com> The way accessibility was approached by Google is pretty smart. Eyes-free they call it implying that someone who can see might choose to operate their smartphone without using their vision. This is so they can keep their eyes on the road, for instance. Thus, it became something valuable to include in their operating system as a feature that could benefit the entire user population and not just one specific sector of it. I thought it was rather clever and I must say I like the inclusive mindset. Apple has done something similar with Siri. Alex M -----Original Message----- From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces at gnome.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Chaltain Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 3:17 PM To: vinux-support at googlegroups.com Cc: 'Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List'; orca-list at gnome.org Subject: Re: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT I know you didn't say this, but Mark Shuttleworth and Jane Silver are aware that totally blind people can use computers and smart phones. I think you're right in that it's hard for any one to quantify their return on investment into accessibility, even a smart business man or woman. I'm not even sure you could say that Apple has sold a million iPhones they wouldn't have sold otherwise because of VoiceOver and accessibility. Also, selling a million more smart phones has to be prioritized behind selling that first smart phone. Getting a new smart phone with a new operating system into the arena is incredibly hard. Not only is there all of the development that needs to go on (think of all of those apps you take for granted on your current smart phone and realize none of those apps exist yet under Unity) but there's also the fact that you need to get manufacturers and carriers on board and build an ecosystem around a new player in the mobile space. I'm not saying Canonical shouldn't be investing more in accessibility, in fact, I think they should be. I'd like to see them pushing accessibility more in their marketing, be the first smart phone to be accessible right out of the gate and hammer home the fact that ubuntu (the philosophy and operating system) includes blind people. I think this would pay off for Canonical down the road. Whatever anyone thinks of Canonical and Mark Shuttleworth, he is an incredibly successful, bright and driven person, and he has to accomplish an awful lot with limited resources if Ubuntu Touch is going to be successful. Accessibility is only one challenge on his radar. On 07/24/2013 12:29 PM, Krishnakant Mane wrote: > I think the issue here is the total mindset and also the fact that > many so called smart business men don't realize the business they can > generate out of accessibility. > Firstly, there are those who don't *still* beleive that a totaly blind > person like me can actually use a Phone, let alone a computer. > And I am refering to highly qualified engineers or business personals. > Secondly, how many would go one step ahead and say "let's add a > million more probable custommers by making the device accessible"? > That's why accessibility takes a back seet. > happy hacking. > Krishnakant. > > On 07/24/2013 10:51 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote: >> I agree accessibility should be baked in from the beginning. It's >> cheaper than bolting it on later, opens up more revenue streams, >> provides positive PR and so on. It's the law here in the US, and just >> the right thing to do. I wasn't speaking from my own opinion, but >> just echoing where I think these companies are coming from and why I >> think their making the investments they are. I can't think of a >> single smart phone company that introduced an accessible smart phone >> with they're first offering and that includes Apple, Google, >> Microsoft and Nokia. I don't like it, but I don't think many >> companies place accessibility very high on their priority lists as >> compared to getting a new product into the market place and getting >> it to a point where it's competitive and profitable. >> >> I've heard that Apple had to develop it's own screen reader when >> Berkley Systems went out of business and no other 3rd party screen >> reader would develop a screen reader for the Mac. Apple was in danger >> of losing government contracts because MS had an accessible story >> while Apple did not. I don't know this first hand, but I would say I >> have it from reliable sources. Of course, Apple has gone far beyond >> this in making all of it's products accessible out of the box. >> >> I'm not aware of any company losing a government contract because >> they didn't have an accessible smart phone story, but I suspect this >> is possible as smart phones become more and more a ubiquitous part of >> the business world. This is why I suspect MS will address >> accessibility on their Windows Phone platform at some point. I think >> they need to get the Windows Phone platform to a point where >> government agencies start considering asking their employees to use a >> Windows Phone. Right now, I suspect Windows Phone doesn't have the >> apps or the market penetration for businesses or government agencies >> to even consider it as an option. I've heard good things about the >> Windows Phone platform though, and I do know it's becoming a viable >> third option behind Apple and Android. >> >> The real point of my email though was to be careful making analogies >> between Canonical and Apple/Google. If we assume Canonical has 500 >> employees with one person working on accessibility (I know I'm being >> optimistic.) then how does this compare to Apple and it's ratio of >> total employees to those working on accessibility? Also, don't forget >> that Apple's first smart phone was not accessible. It wasn't until >> this was successful in the market place and competing with Nokia and >> Blackberry before they added accessibility. Ditto for Google. >> >> On 07/24/2013 11:57 AM, Al Sten-Clanton wrote: >>> It strikes me that, from the perspective you're describing, a >>> "viable product" apparently does not include accessibility as a >>> matter of course. (I'm not saying that's your own view, but only >>> that this is the view you describe--all too well and concisely.) >>> Until our access needs are deemed equal to the access needs of those >>> who use the standard monitor and other tools, the attitude in the business will be wrong. >>> >>> Tell me if I'm mistaken, but I think I heard recently that Apple's >>> recent foray into accessibility resulted from a law suit. (I say >>> "recent foray" because there was a period during the 1980s when it >>> provided some speech output at least.) Does anybody know for sure >>> whether this is right or wrong? >>> >>> Al >>> >>> On 07/23/2013 11:38 PM, Christopher J Chaltain wrote: >>>> I agree it's unfortunate that Luke is the only one working on Unity >>>> accessibility, but there is a big difference between Canonical and >>>> Apple or Google. Apple is the wealthiest company in the world. >>>> Google is also a large company and is also quite profitable. Apple >>>> and Google are already well established players in the mobile >>>> space. Neither the iPhone nor Android were accessible when they >>>> were first released. Canonical is a tiny company, less than 600 >>>> employees, and is still not profitable after being around for about >>>> eight years or so. It's still trying to break into the mobile >>>> market. >>>> >>>> I'm not defending Canonical here. I too wish that they would invest >>>> more in accessibility development. I'm just pointing out that >>>> circumstances right now between Canonical and Apple/Google are >>>> quite a bit different. >>>> I think Canonical focus right now is to just get a viable product >>>> out into the market place. I'm sure that once that happens and it >>>> becomes successful, they'll invest more in accessibility, just as >>>> Apple and Google have. In some ways, this is analogous to Microsoft >>>> and Windows Phone. MS's priority right now is to become relevant in >>>> the mobile space. Once that happens then I think accessibility will >>>> move up higher on their priority queue. >>>> >>>> On 07/24/2013 08:41 AM, Alex Midence wrote: >>>>> Hi, Luke, >>>>> >>>>> Just to be clear, I don't think and have never thought you were >>>>> part of the problem. What I do think is that it sucks that you >>>>> are the only one having to do all this work. They really should >>>>> hire you some help. There is only so much one person can do and >>>>> a11y is a big job. Apple has a full on team working on Voiceover. >>>>> Google has Dr. Raman and his assistant and probably others I don't >>>>> know about working on Android accessibility. If canonical is going >>>>> to expand into all these other markets, I don't see why they can't >>>>> hire you a couple of assistants to help distribute the workload. >>>>> However, >>>>> those decisions are beyond our control. Speaking for myself, I am >>>>> personally very appreciative of all the work you have put in. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> Alex M >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Luke Yelavich [mailto:themuso at ubuntu.com] >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 11:05 PM >>>>> To: Alex Midence >>>>> Cc: Christopher Chaltain; vinux-support at googlegroups.com; 'Ubuntu >>>>> Accessibility Mailing List'; orca-list at gnome.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop >>>>> to go to Mir and QT >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 01:33:34PM EST, Alex Midence wrote: >>>>>> Also, for the record, I fully recognize and appreciate all the >>>>>> hard work of the developers of the Ubuntu community who freely >>>>>> give of their time to make things accessible. However, it was >>>>>> disappointing to finally have gotten a very accessible port of >>>>>> Unity in 12.04 only to be told that we were back to poor a11y in >>>>>> other versions of the distro for at the very least 2 full years. >>>>> For the record, I was disappointed as well. I expressed my desire >>>>> for Unity to stick with using Qt at the time, given the >>>>> accessibility advantages it brought for one, and the fact that it >>>>> would have made maintaining unity easier as the nux GUI toolkit >>>>> wouldn't also need to be maintained, and Qt is well established >>>>> etc. >>>>> >>>>> I am the only developer working for Canonical who spends at least >>>>> some of the time working on accessibility issues. I say some of >>>>> the time, because I do have other duties, in fact the primary >>>>> reason why I was hired was not to work exclusively on >>>>> accessibility, although the powers that be are ok with me doing >>>>> so. >>>>> >>>>> Having said that, my big focus for the next 10-12 months will >>>>> almost exclusively be getting Qt5, Mir, and Unity as accessible an >>>>> environment as one person can possibly manage. Qt5 helps somewhat, >>>>> but the specific parts of Qt that are being used for the new Unity >>>>> still have some rough spots when it comes to accessibility, and >>>>> there is also the changing graphics stack and everythign that goes >>>>> with it to deal with. >>>>> >>>>> Given these changes, and given I am the only person who is likely >>>>> going to be working on all of this, I cannot really promise >>>>> anything, given the work that is required, and given the time and >>>>> resources, or possibly lack there of, available to do so. I do >>>>> really appreciate that you all want regularly updated, accessible >>>>> distro releases that have the latest accessibility crack, but >>>>> please keep in mind just how many of us in the wider *nix >>>>> accessibility community there are, and also keep in mind how many >>>>> of us are involved with some form of active development in the >>>>> area, and if you want to dig deeper, think about the number of us >>>>> working on GUI desktop accessibility of some kind. >>>>> >>>>> I try to take the approach of under promising, and at least >>>>> delivering, and if I can over deliver, than thats great. >>>>> >>>>> In the meantime, there is the Ubuntu GNOME remix, with GNOME >>>>> shell, wich does work quite well these days. I'll do my best to >>>>> try and fix any issues people may notice with that release, given >>>>> the accessibility tools and infrastructure are shared with GNOME >>>>> and Unity. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, and I really appreciate your understanding, and support. >>>>> >>>>> Luke >>>>> >>>> >> > -- Christopher (CJ) chaltain at Gmail _______________________________________________ orca-list mailing list orca-list at gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp From alex.midence at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 20:30:05 2013 From: alex.midence at gmail.com (Alex Midence) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 15:30:05 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <51F00773.7010303@verizon.net> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> <51EF4B0E.3050303@gmail.com> <20130724040447.GA24645@acapella> <008101ce8873$7b263080$71729180$@gmail.com> <51EF4C23.4050103@gmail.com> <51F00773.7010303@verizon.net> Message-ID: <00d501ce88ac$95d1f340$c175d9c0$@gmail.com> I hadn't heard that one. I don't know how someone would have had a case against Apple since there was a largely accessible alternative in the form of Windows or Windows Mobile. All through my years growing up, Apple and inaccessible were more or less synonymous. I remember how pleasantly surprised I was to learn that Apple had done such a fine job with Voiceover. I heard that the ones that got sued were Microsoft for beefing up Narrator and that it was a screen reader company that did it on the grounds of them pulling an internet explorer vs netscape type thing but with screen readers this time. I don't know if either of these is true though, so, don't quote me. Alex M -----Original Message----- From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces at gnome.org] On Behalf Of Al Sten-Clanton Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 11:57 AM To: Christopher J Chaltain Cc: vinux-support at googlegroups.com; 'Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List'; orca-list at gnome.org Subject: Re: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT It strikes me that, from the perspective you're describing, a "viable product" apparently does not include accessibility as a matter of course. (I'm not saying that's your own view, but only that this is the view you describe--all too well and concisely.) Until our access needs are deemed equal to the access needs of those who use the standard monitor and other tools, the attitude in the business will be wrong. Tell me if I'm mistaken, but I think I heard recently that Apple's recent foray into accessibility resulted from a law suit. (I say "recent foray" because there was a period during the 1980s when it provided some speech output at least.) Does anybody know for sure whether this is right or wrong? Al On 07/23/2013 11:38 PM, Christopher J Chaltain wrote: > I agree it's unfortunate that Luke is the only one working on Unity > accessibility, but there is a big difference between Canonical and > Apple or Google. Apple is the wealthiest company in the world. Google > is also a large company and is also quite profitable. Apple and Google > are already well established players in the mobile space. Neither the > iPhone nor Android were accessible when they were first released. > Canonical is a tiny company, less than 600 employees, and is still not > profitable after being around for about eight years or so. It's still > trying to break into the mobile market. > > I'm not defending Canonical here. I too wish that they would invest > more in accessibility development. I'm just pointing out that > circumstances right now between Canonical and Apple/Google are quite a bit different. > I think Canonical focus right now is to just get a viable product out > into the market place. I'm sure that once that happens and it becomes > successful, they'll invest more in accessibility, just as Apple and > Google have. In some ways, this is analogous to Microsoft and Windows > Phone. MS's priority right now is to become relevant in the mobile > space. Once that happens then I think accessibility will move up > higher on their priority queue. > > On 07/24/2013 08:41 AM, Alex Midence wrote: >> Hi, Luke, >> >> Just to be clear, I don't think and have never thought you were part >> of the problem. What I do think is that it sucks that you are the >> only one having to do all this work. They really should hire you >> some help. There is only so much one person can do and a11y is a big >> job. Apple has a full on team working on Voiceover. Google has Dr. >> Raman and his assistant and probably others I don't know about >> working on Android accessibility. If canonical is going to expand >> into all these other markets, I don't see why they can't hire you a >> couple of assistants to help distribute the workload. >> However, >> those decisions are beyond our control. Speaking for myself, I am >> personally very appreciative of all the work you have put in. >> >> >> Best regards, >> Alex M >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Luke Yelavich [mailto:themuso at ubuntu.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 11:05 PM >> To: Alex Midence >> Cc: Christopher Chaltain; vinux-support at googlegroups.com; 'Ubuntu >> Accessibility Mailing List'; orca-list at gnome.org >> Subject: Re: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to >> go to Mir and QT >> >> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 01:33:34PM EST, Alex Midence wrote: >>> Also, for the record, I fully recognize and appreciate all the hard >>> work of the developers of the Ubuntu community who freely give of >>> their time to make things accessible. However, it was disappointing >>> to finally have gotten a very accessible port of Unity in 12.04 only >>> to be told that we were back to poor a11y in other versions of the >>> distro for at the very least 2 full years. >> For the record, I was disappointed as well. I expressed my desire for >> Unity to stick with using Qt at the time, given the accessibility >> advantages it brought for one, and the fact that it would have made >> maintaining unity easier as the nux GUI toolkit wouldn't also need to >> be maintained, and Qt is well established etc. >> >> I am the only developer working for Canonical who spends at least >> some of the time working on accessibility issues. I say some of the >> time, because I do have other duties, in fact the primary reason why >> I was hired was not to work exclusively on accessibility, although >> the powers that be are ok with me doing so. >> >> Having said that, my big focus for the next 10-12 months will almost >> exclusively be getting Qt5, Mir, and Unity as accessible an >> environment as one person can possibly manage. Qt5 helps somewhat, >> but the specific parts of Qt that are being used for the new Unity >> still have some rough spots when it comes to accessibility, and there >> is also the changing graphics stack and everythign that goes with it >> to deal with. >> >> Given these changes, and given I am the only person who is likely >> going to be working on all of this, I cannot really promise anything, >> given the work that is required, and given the time and resources, or >> possibly lack there of, available to do so. I do really appreciate >> that you all want regularly updated, accessible distro releases that >> have the latest accessibility crack, but please keep in mind just how >> many of us in the wider *nix accessibility community there are, and >> also keep in mind how many of us are involved with some form of >> active development in the area, and if you want to dig deeper, think >> about the number of us working on GUI desktop accessibility of some >> kind. >> >> I try to take the approach of under promising, and at least >> delivering, and if I can over deliver, than thats great. >> >> In the meantime, there is the Ubuntu GNOME remix, with GNOME shell, >> wich does work quite well these days. I'll do my best to try and fix >> any issues people may notice with that release, given the >> accessibility tools and infrastructure are shared with GNOME and >> Unity. >> >> Thanks, and I really appreciate your understanding, and support. >> >> Luke >> > _______________________________________________ orca-list mailing list orca-list at gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp From chaltain at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 20:49:33 2013 From: chaltain at gmail.com (Christopher Chaltain) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 15:49:33 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <00d301ce88ab$dcaf3c60$960db520$@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> <51EF4B0E.3050303@gmail.com> <20130724040447.GA24645@acapella> <008101ce8873$7b263080$71729180$@gmail.com> <51EF4C23.4050103@gmail.com> <51F00773.7010303@verizon.net> <51F00D16.6010802@gmail.com> <51F00EFE.2000407@gmail.com> <51F03645.8080503@gmail.com> <00d301ce88ab$dcaf3c60$960db520$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51F03DDD.6010107@gmail.com> I agree. You also see this on all of the GPS apps which provide turn by turn spoken directions. True accessibility, for a blind user though, does need to go a bit beyond just what needs to be done for eyes free use. On 07/24/2013 03:24 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > The way accessibility was approached by Google is pretty smart. Eyes-free > they call it implying that someone who can see might choose to operate their > smartphone without using their vision. This is so they can keep their eyes > on the road, for instance. Thus, it became something valuable to include in > their operating system as a feature that could benefit the entire user > population and not just one specific sector of it. I thought it was rather > clever and I must say I like the inclusive mindset. Apple has done > something similar with Siri. > > Alex M > > > -----Original Message----- > From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces at gnome.org] On Behalf Of > Christopher Chaltain > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 3:17 PM > To: vinux-support at googlegroups.com > Cc: 'Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List'; orca-list at gnome.org > Subject: Re: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to > Mir and QT > > I know you didn't say this, but Mark Shuttleworth and Jane Silver are aware > that totally blind people can use computers and smart phones. I think you're > right in that it's hard for any one to quantify their return on investment > into accessibility, even a smart business man or woman. I'm not even sure > you could say that Apple has sold a million iPhones they wouldn't have sold > otherwise because of VoiceOver and accessibility. Also, selling a million > more smart phones has to be prioritized behind selling that first smart > phone. > > Getting a new smart phone with a new operating system into the arena is > incredibly hard. Not only is there all of the development that needs to go > on (think of all of those apps you take for granted on your current smart > phone and realize none of those apps exist yet under Unity) but there's also > the fact that you need to get manufacturers and carriers on board and build > an ecosystem around a new player in the mobile space. > > I'm not saying Canonical shouldn't be investing more in accessibility, in > fact, I think they should be. I'd like to see them pushing accessibility > more in their marketing, be the first smart phone to be accessible right out > of the gate and hammer home the fact that ubuntu (the philosophy and > operating system) includes blind people. I think this would pay off for > Canonical down the road. > > Whatever anyone thinks of Canonical and Mark Shuttleworth, he is an > incredibly successful, bright and driven person, and he has to accomplish an > awful lot with limited resources if Ubuntu Touch is going to be successful. > Accessibility is only one challenge on his radar. > > On 07/24/2013 12:29 PM, Krishnakant Mane wrote: >> I think the issue here is the total mindset and also the fact that >> many so called smart business men don't realize the business they can >> generate out of accessibility. >> Firstly, there are those who don't *still* beleive that a totaly blind >> person like me can actually use a Phone, let alone a computer. >> And I am refering to highly qualified engineers or business personals. >> Secondly, how many would go one step ahead and say "let's add a >> million more probable custommers by making the device accessible"? >> That's why accessibility takes a back seet. >> happy hacking. >> Krishnakant. >> >> On 07/24/2013 10:51 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote: >>> I agree accessibility should be baked in from the beginning. It's >>> cheaper than bolting it on later, opens up more revenue streams, >>> provides positive PR and so on. It's the law here in the US, and just >>> the right thing to do. I wasn't speaking from my own opinion, but >>> just echoing where I think these companies are coming from and why I >>> think their making the investments they are. I can't think of a >>> single smart phone company that introduced an accessible smart phone >>> with they're first offering and that includes Apple, Google, >>> Microsoft and Nokia. I don't like it, but I don't think many >>> companies place accessibility very high on their priority lists as >>> compared to getting a new product into the market place and getting >>> it to a point where it's competitive and profitable. >>> >>> I've heard that Apple had to develop it's own screen reader when >>> Berkley Systems went out of business and no other 3rd party screen >>> reader would develop a screen reader for the Mac. Apple was in danger >>> of losing government contracts because MS had an accessible story >>> while Apple did not. I don't know this first hand, but I would say I >>> have it from reliable sources. Of course, Apple has gone far beyond >>> this in making all of it's products accessible out of the box. >>> >>> I'm not aware of any company losing a government contract because >>> they didn't have an accessible smart phone story, but I suspect this >>> is possible as smart phones become more and more a ubiquitous part of >>> the business world. This is why I suspect MS will address >>> accessibility on their Windows Phone platform at some point. I think >>> they need to get the Windows Phone platform to a point where >>> government agencies start considering asking their employees to use a >>> Windows Phone. Right now, I suspect Windows Phone doesn't have the >>> apps or the market penetration for businesses or government agencies >>> to even consider it as an option. I've heard good things about the >>> Windows Phone platform though, and I do know it's becoming a viable >>> third option behind Apple and Android. >>> >>> The real point of my email though was to be careful making analogies >>> between Canonical and Apple/Google. If we assume Canonical has 500 >>> employees with one person working on accessibility (I know I'm being >>> optimistic.) then how does this compare to Apple and it's ratio of >>> total employees to those working on accessibility? Also, don't forget >>> that Apple's first smart phone was not accessible. It wasn't until >>> this was successful in the market place and competing with Nokia and >>> Blackberry before they added accessibility. Ditto for Google. >>> >>> On 07/24/2013 11:57 AM, Al Sten-Clanton wrote: >>>> It strikes me that, from the perspective you're describing, a >>>> "viable product" apparently does not include accessibility as a >>>> matter of course. (I'm not saying that's your own view, but only >>>> that this is the view you describe--all too well and concisely.) >>>> Until our access needs are deemed equal to the access needs of those >>>> who use the standard monitor and other tools, the attitude in the > business will be wrong. >>>> >>>> Tell me if I'm mistaken, but I think I heard recently that Apple's >>>> recent foray into accessibility resulted from a law suit. (I say >>>> "recent foray" because there was a period during the 1980s when it >>>> provided some speech output at least.) Does anybody know for sure >>>> whether this is right or wrong? >>>> >>>> Al >>>> >>>> On 07/23/2013 11:38 PM, Christopher J Chaltain wrote: >>>>> I agree it's unfortunate that Luke is the only one working on Unity >>>>> accessibility, but there is a big difference between Canonical and >>>>> Apple or Google. Apple is the wealthiest company in the world. >>>>> Google is also a large company and is also quite profitable. Apple >>>>> and Google are already well established players in the mobile >>>>> space. Neither the iPhone nor Android were accessible when they >>>>> were first released. Canonical is a tiny company, less than 600 >>>>> employees, and is still not profitable after being around for about >>>>> eight years or so. It's still trying to break into the mobile >>>>> market. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not defending Canonical here. I too wish that they would invest >>>>> more in accessibility development. I'm just pointing out that >>>>> circumstances right now between Canonical and Apple/Google are >>>>> quite a bit different. >>>>> I think Canonical focus right now is to just get a viable product >>>>> out into the market place. I'm sure that once that happens and it >>>>> becomes successful, they'll invest more in accessibility, just as >>>>> Apple and Google have. In some ways, this is analogous to Microsoft >>>>> and Windows Phone. MS's priority right now is to become relevant in >>>>> the mobile space. Once that happens then I think accessibility will >>>>> move up higher on their priority queue. >>>>> >>>>> On 07/24/2013 08:41 AM, Alex Midence wrote: >>>>>> Hi, Luke, >>>>>> >>>>>> Just to be clear, I don't think and have never thought you were >>>>>> part of the problem. What I do think is that it sucks that you >>>>>> are the only one having to do all this work. They really should >>>>>> hire you some help. There is only so much one person can do and >>>>>> a11y is a big job. Apple has a full on team working on Voiceover. >>>>>> Google has Dr. Raman and his assistant and probably others I don't >>>>>> know about working on Android accessibility. If canonical is going >>>>>> to expand into all these other markets, I don't see why they can't >>>>>> hire you a couple of assistants to help distribute the workload. >>>>>> However, >>>>>> those decisions are beyond our control. Speaking for myself, I am >>>>>> personally very appreciative of all the work you have put in. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> Alex M >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Luke Yelavich [mailto:themuso at ubuntu.com] >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 11:05 PM >>>>>> To: Alex Midence >>>>>> Cc: Christopher Chaltain; vinux-support at googlegroups.com; 'Ubuntu >>>>>> Accessibility Mailing List'; orca-list at gnome.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop >>>>>> to go to Mir and QT >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 01:33:34PM EST, Alex Midence wrote: >>>>>>> Also, for the record, I fully recognize and appreciate all the >>>>>>> hard work of the developers of the Ubuntu community who freely >>>>>>> give of their time to make things accessible. However, it was >>>>>>> disappointing to finally have gotten a very accessible port of >>>>>>> Unity in 12.04 only to be told that we were back to poor a11y in >>>>>>> other versions of the distro for at the very least 2 full years. >>>>>> For the record, I was disappointed as well. I expressed my desire >>>>>> for Unity to stick with using Qt at the time, given the >>>>>> accessibility advantages it brought for one, and the fact that it >>>>>> would have made maintaining unity easier as the nux GUI toolkit >>>>>> wouldn't also need to be maintained, and Qt is well established >>>>>> etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am the only developer working for Canonical who spends at least >>>>>> some of the time working on accessibility issues. I say some of >>>>>> the time, because I do have other duties, in fact the primary >>>>>> reason why I was hired was not to work exclusively on >>>>>> accessibility, although the powers that be are ok with me doing >>>>>> so. >>>>>> >>>>>> Having said that, my big focus for the next 10-12 months will >>>>>> almost exclusively be getting Qt5, Mir, and Unity as accessible an >>>>>> environment as one person can possibly manage. Qt5 helps somewhat, >>>>>> but the specific parts of Qt that are being used for the new Unity >>>>>> still have some rough spots when it comes to accessibility, and >>>>>> there is also the changing graphics stack and everythign that goes >>>>>> with it to deal with. >>>>>> >>>>>> Given these changes, and given I am the only person who is likely >>>>>> going to be working on all of this, I cannot really promise >>>>>> anything, given the work that is required, and given the time and >>>>>> resources, or possibly lack there of, available to do so. I do >>>>>> really appreciate that you all want regularly updated, accessible >>>>>> distro releases that have the latest accessibility crack, but >>>>>> please keep in mind just how many of us in the wider *nix >>>>>> accessibility community there are, and also keep in mind how many >>>>>> of us are involved with some form of active development in the >>>>>> area, and if you want to dig deeper, think about the number of us >>>>>> working on GUI desktop accessibility of some kind. >>>>>> >>>>>> I try to take the approach of under promising, and at least >>>>>> delivering, and if I can over deliver, than thats great. >>>>>> >>>>>> In the meantime, there is the Ubuntu GNOME remix, with GNOME >>>>>> shell, wich does work quite well these days. I'll do my best to >>>>>> try and fix any issues people may notice with that release, given >>>>>> the accessibility tools and infrastructure are shared with GNOME >>>>>> and Unity. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, and I really appreciate your understanding, and support. >>>>>> >>>>>> Luke >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> > > -- > Christopher (CJ) > chaltain at Gmail > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out how to > help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > -- Christopher (CJ) chaltain at Gmail From chaltain at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 20:58:13 2013 From: chaltain at gmail.com (Christopher Chaltain) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 15:58:13 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <00d501ce88ac$95d1f340$c175d9c0$@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> <51EF4B0E.3050303@gmail.com> <20130724040447.GA24645@acapella> <008101ce8873$7b263080$71729180$@gmail.com> <51EF4C23.4050103@gmail.com> <51F00773.7010303@verizon.net> <00d501ce88ac$95d1f340$c175d9c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51F03FE5.1050206@gmail.com> I hadn't heard that Apple was actually sued. My understanding was that back when Windows had an accessible option through 3rd party screen readers and Apple had no screen reader at all that Apple was losing out to Microsoft, or at least had the potential to lose such deals, when selling systems to government agencies and educational facilities. My understanding was that Microsoft was never sued over accessibility but that the screen reader companies did work with Microsoft to convince Microsoft not to come out with their own screen reader. It was felt that if Microsoft developed their own screen reader, then 3rd party screen readers would fall by the way side, and in the long run, this would not be advantageous to the blind. I do have some limited first hand knowledge of what happened here. Obviously Apple's model does a lot to disprove this concern, but I personally still have an issue with a company controlling the OS, application suite and screen reader. It's fine when you're an all MS or an all Apple shop, but what if you want to use Firefox on Windows or MS Office on the Mac. On 07/24/2013 03:30 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > I hadn't heard that one. I don't know how someone would have had a case > against Apple since there was a largely accessible alternative in the form > of Windows or Windows Mobile. All through my years growing up, Apple and > inaccessible were more or less synonymous. I remember how pleasantly > surprised I was to learn that Apple had done such a fine job with Voiceover. > I heard that the ones that got sued were Microsoft for beefing up Narrator > and that it was a screen reader company that did it on the grounds of them > pulling an internet explorer vs netscape type thing but with screen readers > this time. I don't know if either of these is true though, so, don't quote > me. > > Alex M > > > -----Original Message----- > From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces at gnome.org] On Behalf Of Al > Sten-Clanton > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 11:57 AM > To: Christopher J Chaltain > Cc: vinux-support at googlegroups.com; 'Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List'; > orca-list at gnome.org > Subject: Re: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to > Mir and QT > > It strikes me that, from the perspective you're describing, a "viable > product" apparently does not include accessibility as a matter of course. > (I'm not saying that's your own view, but only that this is the view you > describe--all too well and concisely.) Until our access needs are deemed > equal to the access needs of those who use the standard monitor and other > tools, the attitude in the business will be wrong. > > Tell me if I'm mistaken, but I think I heard recently that Apple's recent > foray into accessibility resulted from a law suit. (I say "recent foray" > because there was a period during the 1980s when it provided some speech > output at least.) Does anybody know for sure whether this is right or wrong? > > Al > > On 07/23/2013 11:38 PM, Christopher J Chaltain wrote: >> I agree it's unfortunate that Luke is the only one working on Unity >> accessibility, but there is a big difference between Canonical and >> Apple or Google. Apple is the wealthiest company in the world. Google >> is also a large company and is also quite profitable. Apple and Google >> are already well established players in the mobile space. Neither the >> iPhone nor Android were accessible when they were first released. >> Canonical is a tiny company, less than 600 employees, and is still not >> profitable after being around for about eight years or so. It's still >> trying to break into the mobile market. >> >> I'm not defending Canonical here. I too wish that they would invest >> more in accessibility development. I'm just pointing out that >> circumstances right now between Canonical and Apple/Google are quite a bit > different. >> I think Canonical focus right now is to just get a viable product out >> into the market place. I'm sure that once that happens and it becomes >> successful, they'll invest more in accessibility, just as Apple and >> Google have. In some ways, this is analogous to Microsoft and Windows >> Phone. MS's priority right now is to become relevant in the mobile >> space. Once that happens then I think accessibility will move up >> higher on their priority queue. >> >> On 07/24/2013 08:41 AM, Alex Midence wrote: >>> Hi, Luke, >>> >>> Just to be clear, I don't think and have never thought you were part >>> of the problem. What I do think is that it sucks that you are the >>> only one having to do all this work. They really should hire you >>> some help. There is only so much one person can do and a11y is a big >>> job. Apple has a full on team working on Voiceover. Google has Dr. >>> Raman and his assistant and probably others I don't know about >>> working on Android accessibility. If canonical is going to expand >>> into all these other markets, I don't see why they can't hire you a >>> couple of assistants to help distribute the workload. >>> However, >>> those decisions are beyond our control. Speaking for myself, I am >>> personally very appreciative of all the work you have put in. >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Alex M >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Luke Yelavich [mailto:themuso at ubuntu.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 11:05 PM >>> To: Alex Midence >>> Cc: Christopher Chaltain; vinux-support at googlegroups.com; 'Ubuntu >>> Accessibility Mailing List'; orca-list at gnome.org >>> Subject: Re: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to >>> go to Mir and QT >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 01:33:34PM EST, Alex Midence wrote: >>>> Also, for the record, I fully recognize and appreciate all the hard >>>> work of the developers of the Ubuntu community who freely give of >>>> their time to make things accessible. However, it was disappointing >>>> to finally have gotten a very accessible port of Unity in 12.04 only >>>> to be told that we were back to poor a11y in other versions of the >>>> distro for at the very least 2 full years. >>> For the record, I was disappointed as well. I expressed my desire for >>> Unity to stick with using Qt at the time, given the accessibility >>> advantages it brought for one, and the fact that it would have made >>> maintaining unity easier as the nux GUI toolkit wouldn't also need to >>> be maintained, and Qt is well established etc. >>> >>> I am the only developer working for Canonical who spends at least >>> some of the time working on accessibility issues. I say some of the >>> time, because I do have other duties, in fact the primary reason why >>> I was hired was not to work exclusively on accessibility, although >>> the powers that be are ok with me doing so. >>> >>> Having said that, my big focus for the next 10-12 months will almost >>> exclusively be getting Qt5, Mir, and Unity as accessible an >>> environment as one person can possibly manage. Qt5 helps somewhat, >>> but the specific parts of Qt that are being used for the new Unity >>> still have some rough spots when it comes to accessibility, and there >>> is also the changing graphics stack and everythign that goes with it >>> to deal with. >>> >>> Given these changes, and given I am the only person who is likely >>> going to be working on all of this, I cannot really promise anything, >>> given the work that is required, and given the time and resources, or >>> possibly lack there of, available to do so. I do really appreciate >>> that you all want regularly updated, accessible distro releases that >>> have the latest accessibility crack, but please keep in mind just how >>> many of us in the wider *nix accessibility community there are, and >>> also keep in mind how many of us are involved with some form of >>> active development in the area, and if you want to dig deeper, think >>> about the number of us working on GUI desktop accessibility of some >>> kind. >>> >>> I try to take the approach of under promising, and at least >>> delivering, and if I can over deliver, than thats great. >>> >>> In the meantime, there is the Ubuntu GNOME remix, with GNOME shell, >>> wich does work quite well these days. I'll do my best to try and fix >>> any issues people may notice with that release, given the >>> accessibility tools and infrastructure are shared with GNOME and >>> Unity. >>> >>> Thanks, and I really appreciate your understanding, and support. >>> >>> Luke >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out how to > help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > -- Christopher (CJ) chaltain at Gmail From fudge at thefudge.net Fri Jul 26 03:23:50 2013 From: fudge at thefudge.net (Rob Whyte) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 13:23:50 +1000 Subject: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51F1EBC6.4010405@thefudge.net> Hi, I think this thread can be closed now. It has generated a lot of back and fourth and I think we all get the point. If parties involved would like to continue off lists that would be preferable. Kind regards Rob Whyte On 24/07/13 07:31, Christopher Chaltain wrote: > I do not work for Canonical, and my statements on this or any list > have never been anything other than my own opinions. I don't know any > more, and never have, about the plans for Unity accessibility than > anyone else following the Ubuntu blueprints, subscribing to the Ubuntu > accessibility mailing list, logging into the Ubuntu accessibility IRC > channel and attending the accessibility related sessions at UDS. This > is how I know the decision to focus accessibility resources on the LTS > releases was a very open and transparent decision. It was also not an > easy decision to make. I don't personally know at the moment what the > plans are now for the accessibility of Unity and Ubuntu 14.04, but I > assume they haven't changed and this is still the goal. > > I don't think I'm quick to defend Ubuntu or Unity when anyone speaks > out against it, since there isn't enough time in the world for one > person to do this. I do try to point out though when someone misstates > something or says something that can lead to an incorrect inference. I > don't just do this for Ubuntu but other OS's, screen readers, > applications and products where I have some knowledge and experience. > > The fact of the matter is that you stated the decision to focus > accessibility resources on 14.04 was to "sooth our ruffled feathers". > Of course, you have the right to your opinion, and you can be as > snarky as you want (although I don't know what this has to do with > what country your from) but as I read this, it implies that the > developers made this statement to get blind users off their back. I > can assure you, since I was in the room when this was discussed and > this decision was made, that this was not the case. The fact of the > matter, is that it was considered to be the best way to leverage the > precious accessibility resources working on Ubuntu, and it was just as > simple as that. There were no ulterior motives, and there was no > discussion whatsoever on spin or damage control. I understand you > think this may be hair splitting, but I think it's important that > people reading your message understand that the accessibility > developers working on Unity aren't doing anything but being completely > honest and open with the blind Ubuntu/Unity users. I am quick to > defend those developers who are working so hard, many of them giving > from their own spare time, to bring us more accessible solutions. > > BTW, we weren't told this was the way it was going to be. The proposal > was laid out at a session at UDS to be discussed. Anyone could have > attended that session, either in person or via IRC or telephone, and > participated in the discussion. Since resources are so limited, I'm > not sure what other conclusion could have been made though. > > BTW, given previous emails from you, I assumed this wasn't intended to > be inflammatory, but I thought the above inference could be made which > is why I replied as I did. If I'm the only one who made such an > inference then that's great. > > On 07/23/2013 03:41 PM, Alex Midence wrote: >> Placated? No, we weren't placated. We were told that's how it was >> going to >> be and we could suck it up til 14.04. I heard you work for >> Cannonical which >> makes sense since you are extremely quick to defend Ubuntu any time >> anyone >> speaks against it. If this is the case, would you very kindly answer >> the >> million dollar question which was the entire point of my prior message: >> >> Will 14.04 be accessible now that it's going to be qt-based or not? >> If not, >> when do you anticipate an accessible port of Unity? >> >> Oh, and just so you know, my message wasn't trying to be >> inflammatory. I >> *was* being a bit snarky but, I happen to live in a free country >> where such >> things are allowed. I was far more concerned with whether or not I >> should >> project trying to come back to Ubuntu in April of next year or not. You >> see, I happen to be that very odd thing called a fan. I follow them on >> Twitter, I like them on facebook, I read about them online and I have >> even >> hauled off and told my friends about them as a nice way to learn about >> Linux. So quit hair splitting and answer the question if you can, >> please. >> >> Thank you. >> Alex M >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces at gnome.org] On Behalf Of >> Christopher Chaltain >> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 2:58 PM >> To: Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List >> Cc: vinux-support at googlegroups.com; orca-list at gnome.org >> Subject: Re: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT >> >> Unity 2D was pulled from Ubuntu 12.10 and not Ubuntu 12.04. The plan to >> focus accessibility efforts in Ubuntu on the LTS releases was meant to >> provide the best accessibility solution with the resources available. >> This was a transparent decision made with the best information at the >> time. >> Obviously, desktop plans have changed since then. This was not a >> statement >> or move just to placate blind Ubuntu users as your message implies. >> >> On 07/23/2013 01:23 PM, Alex Midence wrote: >>> Hi, all, >>> >>> It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in >>> the near future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone >>> know the current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all >>> disappointed to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu >>> 12.04 and it is believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's >>> wonderfully accessible legacy. This was supposed to soothe our >>> ruffled feathers when 12.10 and >>> 13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, >>> now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of >>> accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even >>> more in light of this development. Please see link below: >>> >>> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Alex M >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> orca-list mailing list >>> orca-list at gnome.org >>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list >>> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. >>> The manual is at >>> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html >>> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions >>> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out >>> how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp >>> >> >> -- >> Christopher (CJ) >> chaltain at Gmail >> _______________________________________________ >> orca-list mailing list >> orca-list at gnome.org >> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list >> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. >> The manual is at >> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html >> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions >> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out >> how to >> help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp >> > From mengualjeanphi at free.fr Fri Jul 26 13:04:19 2013 From: mengualjeanphi at free.fr (Jean-Philippe MENGUAL) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 15:04:19 +0200 Subject: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <51F1EBC6.4010405@thefudge.net> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> <51F1EBC6.4010405@thefudge.net> Message-ID: <20130726130419.GA409@HP> Hi, Ok, but I cannot subscribe on vinux-list. The only access point I find is a javascript interface and I've not a suitable browser. So how can I subscribe? Anyway, as you say, personally, I've my current am]iers about Vinux and I'll test next week. Regards, On vendredi 26 juil. 2013 à 13:23:50 (+1000), Rob Whyte wrote: > Hi, > I think this thread can be closed now. > It has generated a lot of back and fourth and I think we all get the point. > > If parties involved would like to continue off lists that would be > preferable. > > Kind regards > Rob Whyte > On 24/07/13 07:31, Christopher Chaltain wrote: > > I do not work for Canonical, and my statements on this or any list > > have never been anything other than my own opinions. I don't know any > > more, and never have, about the plans for Unity accessibility than > > anyone else following the Ubuntu blueprints, subscribing to the Ubuntu > > accessibility mailing list, logging into the Ubuntu accessibility IRC > > channel and attending the accessibility related sessions at UDS. This > > is how I know the decision to focus accessibility resources on the LTS > > releases was a very open and transparent decision. It was also not an > > easy decision to make. I don't personally know at the moment what the > > plans are now for the accessibility of Unity and Ubuntu 14.04, but I > > assume they haven't changed and this is still the goal. > > > > I don't think I'm quick to defend Ubuntu or Unity when anyone speaks > > out against it, since there isn't enough time in the world for one > > person to do this. I do try to point out though when someone misstates > > something or says something that can lead to an incorrect inference. I > > don't just do this for Ubuntu but other OS's, screen readers, > > applications and products where I have some knowledge and experience. > > > > The fact of the matter is that you stated the decision to focus > > accessibility resources on 14.04 was to "sooth our ruffled feathers". > > Of course, you have the right to your opinion, and you can be as > > snarky as you want (although I don't know what this has to do with > > what country your from) but as I read this, it implies that the > > developers made this statement to get blind users off their back. I > > can assure you, since I was in the room when this was discussed and > > this decision was made, that this was not the case. The fact of the > > matter, is that it was considered to be the best way to leverage the > > precious accessibility resources working on Ubuntu, and it was just as > > simple as that. There were no ulterior motives, and there was no > > discussion whatsoever on spin or damage control. I understand you > > think this may be hair splitting, but I think it's important that > > people reading your message understand that the accessibility > > developers working on Unity aren't doing anything but being completely > > honest and open with the blind Ubuntu/Unity users. I am quick to > > defend those developers who are working so hard, many of them giving > > from their own spare time, to bring us more accessible solutions. > > > > BTW, we weren't told this was the way it was going to be. The proposal > > was laid out at a session at UDS to be discussed. Anyone could have > > attended that session, either in person or via IRC or telephone, and > > participated in the discussion. Since resources are so limited, I'm > > not sure what other conclusion could have been made though. > > > > BTW, given previous emails from you, I assumed this wasn't intended to > > be inflammatory, but I thought the above inference could be made which > > is why I replied as I did. If I'm the only one who made such an > > inference then that's great. > > > > On 07/23/2013 03:41 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > >> Placated? No, we weren't placated. We were told that's how it was > >> going to > >> be and we could suck it up til 14.04. I heard you work for > >> Cannonical which > >> makes sense since you are extremely quick to defend Ubuntu any time > >> anyone > >> speaks against it. If this is the case, would you very kindly answer > >> the > >> million dollar question which was the entire point of my prior message: > >> > >> Will 14.04 be accessible now that it's going to be qt-based or not? > >> If not, > >> when do you anticipate an accessible port of Unity? > >> > >> Oh, and just so you know, my message wasn't trying to be > >> inflammatory. I > >> *was* being a bit snarky but, I happen to live in a free country > >> where such > >> things are allowed. I was far more concerned with whether or not I > >> should > >> project trying to come back to Ubuntu in April of next year or not. You > >> see, I happen to be that very odd thing called a fan. I follow them on > >> Twitter, I like them on facebook, I read about them online and I have > >> even > >> hauled off and told my friends about them as a nice way to learn about > >> Linux. So quit hair splitting and answer the question if you can, > >> please. > >> > >> Thank you. > >> Alex M > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces at gnome.org] On Behalf Of > >> Christopher Chaltain > >> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 2:58 PM > >> To: Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List > >> Cc: vinux-support at googlegroups.com; orca-list at gnome.org > >> Subject: Re: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT > >> > >> Unity 2D was pulled from Ubuntu 12.10 and not Ubuntu 12.04. The plan to > >> focus accessibility efforts in Ubuntu on the LTS releases was meant to > >> provide the best accessibility solution with the resources available. > >> This was a transparent decision made with the best information at the > >> time. > >> Obviously, desktop plans have changed since then. This was not a > >> statement > >> or move just to placate blind Ubuntu users as your message implies. > >> > >> On 07/23/2013 01:23 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > >>> Hi, all, > >>> > >>> It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in > >>> the near future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone > >>> know the current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all > >>> disappointed to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu > >>> 12.04 and it is believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's > >>> wonderfully accessible legacy. This was supposed to soothe our > >>> ruffled feathers when 12.10 and > >>> 13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, > >>> now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of > >>> accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even > >>> more in light of this development. Please see link below: > >>> > >>> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> > >>> Alex M > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> orca-list mailing list > >>> orca-list at gnome.org > >>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > >>> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > >>> The manual is at > >>> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > >>> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > >>> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out > >>> how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> Christopher (CJ) > >> chaltain at Gmail > >> _______________________________________________ > >> orca-list mailing list > >> orca-list at gnome.org > >> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > >> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > >> The manual is at > >> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > >> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > >> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out > >> how to > >> help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp From texou at actux.eu.org Fri Jul 26 13:08:09 2013 From: texou at actux.eu.org (Jean-Philippe MENGUAL) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 15:08:09 +0200 Subject: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT In-Reply-To: <51F1EBC6.4010405@thefudge.net> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> <51F1EBC6.4010405@thefudge.net> Message-ID: <20130726130809.GB409@HP> Hi, Ok, but I cannot subscribe on vinux-list. The only access point I find is a javascript interface and I've not a suitable browser. So how can I subscribe? Anyway, as you say, personally, I've my current am]iers about Vinux and I'll test next week. Regards, On vendredi 26 juil. 2013 à 13:23:50 (+1000), Rob Whyte wrote: > Hi, > I think this thread can be closed now. > It has generated a lot of back and fourth and I think we all get the point. > > If parties involved would like to continue off lists that would be > preferable. > > Kind regards > Rob Whyte > On 24/07/13 07:31, Christopher Chaltain wrote: > > I do not work for Canonical, and my statements on this or any list > > have never been anything other than my own opinions. I don't know any > > more, and never have, about the plans for Unity accessibility than > > anyone else following the Ubuntu blueprints, subscribing to the Ubuntu > > accessibility mailing list, logging into the Ubuntu accessibility IRC > > channel and attending the accessibility related sessions at UDS. This > > is how I know the decision to focus accessibility resources on the LTS > > releases was a very open and transparent decision. It was also not an > > easy decision to make. I don't personally know at the moment what the > > plans are now for the accessibility of Unity and Ubuntu 14.04, but I > > assume they haven't changed and this is still the goal. > > > > I don't think I'm quick to defend Ubuntu or Unity when anyone speaks > > out against it, since there isn't enough time in the world for one > > person to do this. I do try to point out though when someone misstates > > something or says something that can lead to an incorrect inference. I > > don't just do this for Ubuntu but other OS's, screen readers, > > applications and products where I have some knowledge and experience. > > > > The fact of the matter is that you stated the decision to focus > > accessibility resources on 14.04 was to "sooth our ruffled feathers". > > Of course, you have the right to your opinion, and you can be as > > snarky as you want (although I don't know what this has to do with > > what country your from) but as I read this, it implies that the > > developers made this statement to get blind users off their back. I > > can assure you, since I was in the room when this was discussed and > > this decision was made, that this was not the case. The fact of the > > matter, is that it was considered to be the best way to leverage the > > precious accessibility resources working on Ubuntu, and it was just as > > simple as that. There were no ulterior motives, and there was no > > discussion whatsoever on spin or damage control. I understand you > > think this may be hair splitting, but I think it's important that > > people reading your message understand that the accessibility > > developers working on Unity aren't doing anything but being completely > > honest and open with the blind Ubuntu/Unity users. I am quick to > > defend those developers who are working so hard, many of them giving > > from their own spare time, to bring us more accessible solutions. > > > > BTW, we weren't told this was the way it was going to be. The proposal > > was laid out at a session at UDS to be discussed. Anyone could have > > attended that session, either in person or via IRC or telephone, and > > participated in the discussion. Since resources are so limited, I'm > > not sure what other conclusion could have been made though. > > > > BTW, given previous emails from you, I assumed this wasn't intended to > > be inflammatory, but I thought the above inference could be made which > > is why I replied as I did. If I'm the only one who made such an > > inference then that's great. > > > > On 07/23/2013 03:41 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > >> Placated? No, we weren't placated. We were told that's how it was > >> going to > >> be and we could suck it up til 14.04. I heard you work for > >> Cannonical which > >> makes sense since you are extremely quick to defend Ubuntu any time > >> anyone > >> speaks against it. If this is the case, would you very kindly answer > >> the > >> million dollar question which was the entire point of my prior message: > >> > >> Will 14.04 be accessible now that it's going to be qt-based or not? > >> If not, > >> when do you anticipate an accessible port of Unity? > >> > >> Oh, and just so you know, my message wasn't trying to be > >> inflammatory. I > >> *was* being a bit snarky but, I happen to live in a free country > >> where such > >> things are allowed. I was far more concerned with whether or not I > >> should > >> project trying to come back to Ubuntu in April of next year or not. You > >> see, I happen to be that very odd thing called a fan. I follow them on > >> Twitter, I like them on facebook, I read about them online and I have > >> even > >> hauled off and told my friends about them as a nice way to learn about > >> Linux. So quit hair splitting and answer the question if you can, > >> please. > >> > >> Thank you. > >> Alex M > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces at gnome.org] On Behalf Of > >> Christopher Chaltain > >> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 2:58 PM > >> To: Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List > >> Cc: vinux-support at googlegroups.com; orca-list at gnome.org > >> Subject: Re: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT > >> > >> Unity 2D was pulled from Ubuntu 12.10 and not Ubuntu 12.04. The plan to > >> focus accessibility efforts in Ubuntu on the LTS releases was meant to > >> provide the best accessibility solution with the resources available. > >> This was a transparent decision made with the best information at the > >> time. > >> Obviously, desktop plans have changed since then. This was not a > >> statement > >> or move just to placate blind Ubuntu users as your message implies. > >> > >> On 07/23/2013 01:23 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > >>> Hi, all, > >>> > >>> It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in > >>> the near future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone > >>> know the current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all > >>> disappointed to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu > >>> 12.04 and it is believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's > >>> wonderfully accessible legacy. This was supposed to soothe our > >>> ruffled feathers when 12.10 and > >>> 13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, > >>> now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of > >>> accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even > >>> more in light of this development. Please see link below: > >>> > >>> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> > >>> Alex M > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> orca-list mailing list > >>> orca-list at gnome.org > >>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > >>> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > >>> The manual is at > >>> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > >>> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > >>> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out > >>> how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> Christopher (CJ) > >> chaltain at Gmail > >> _______________________________________________ > >> orca-list mailing list > >> orca-list at gnome.org > >> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > >> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > >> The manual is at > >> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > >> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > >> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out > >> how to > >> help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp From chaltain at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 18:22:47 2013 From: chaltain at gmail.com (Christopher Chaltain) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 13:22:47 -0500 Subject: Subscribing to the Vinux support list [was "Re: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT"] In-Reply-To: <20130726130809.GB409@HP> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> <51F1EBC6.4010405@thefudge.net> <20130726130809.GB409@HP> Message-ID: <51F2BE77.2010300@gmail.com> If you're trying to subscribe to the Vinux support list, try sending a blank email message to vinux-support+subscribe at googlegroups.com On 07/26/2013 08:08 AM, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote: > Hi, > > Ok, but I cannot subscribe on vinux-list. The only access point I find is > a javascript interface and I've not a suitable browser. So how can I subscribe? > > Anyway, as you say, personally, I've my current am]iers about Vinux and I'll test next week. > > Regards, > > On vendredi 26 juil. 2013 à 13:23:50 (+1000), Rob Whyte wrote: >> Hi, >> I think this thread can be closed now. >> It has generated a lot of back and fourth and I think we all get the point. >> >> If parties involved would like to continue off lists that would be >> preferable. >> >> Kind regards >> Rob Whyte >> On 24/07/13 07:31, Christopher Chaltain wrote: >>> I do not work for Canonical, and my statements on this or any list >>> have never been anything other than my own opinions. I don't know any >>> more, and never have, about the plans for Unity accessibility than >>> anyone else following the Ubuntu blueprints, subscribing to the Ubuntu >>> accessibility mailing list, logging into the Ubuntu accessibility IRC >>> channel and attending the accessibility related sessions at UDS. This >>> is how I know the decision to focus accessibility resources on the LTS >>> releases was a very open and transparent decision. It was also not an >>> easy decision to make. I don't personally know at the moment what the >>> plans are now for the accessibility of Unity and Ubuntu 14.04, but I >>> assume they haven't changed and this is still the goal. >>> >>> I don't think I'm quick to defend Ubuntu or Unity when anyone speaks >>> out against it, since there isn't enough time in the world for one >>> person to do this. I do try to point out though when someone misstates >>> something or says something that can lead to an incorrect inference. I >>> don't just do this for Ubuntu but other OS's, screen readers, >>> applications and products where I have some knowledge and experience. >>> >>> The fact of the matter is that you stated the decision to focus >>> accessibility resources on 14.04 was to "sooth our ruffled feathers". >>> Of course, you have the right to your opinion, and you can be as >>> snarky as you want (although I don't know what this has to do with >>> what country your from) but as I read this, it implies that the >>> developers made this statement to get blind users off their back. I >>> can assure you, since I was in the room when this was discussed and >>> this decision was made, that this was not the case. The fact of the >>> matter, is that it was considered to be the best way to leverage the >>> precious accessibility resources working on Ubuntu, and it was just as >>> simple as that. There were no ulterior motives, and there was no >>> discussion whatsoever on spin or damage control. I understand you >>> think this may be hair splitting, but I think it's important that >>> people reading your message understand that the accessibility >>> developers working on Unity aren't doing anything but being completely >>> honest and open with the blind Ubuntu/Unity users. I am quick to >>> defend those developers who are working so hard, many of them giving >>> from their own spare time, to bring us more accessible solutions. >>> >>> BTW, we weren't told this was the way it was going to be. The proposal >>> was laid out at a session at UDS to be discussed. Anyone could have >>> attended that session, either in person or via IRC or telephone, and >>> participated in the discussion. Since resources are so limited, I'm >>> not sure what other conclusion could have been made though. >>> >>> BTW, given previous emails from you, I assumed this wasn't intended to >>> be inflammatory, but I thought the above inference could be made which >>> is why I replied as I did. If I'm the only one who made such an >>> inference then that's great. >>> >>> On 07/23/2013 03:41 PM, Alex Midence wrote: >>>> Placated? No, we weren't placated. We were told that's how it was >>>> going to >>>> be and we could suck it up til 14.04. I heard you work for >>>> Cannonical which >>>> makes sense since you are extremely quick to defend Ubuntu any time >>>> anyone >>>> speaks against it. If this is the case, would you very kindly answer >>>> the >>>> million dollar question which was the entire point of my prior message: >>>> >>>> Will 14.04 be accessible now that it's going to be qt-based or not? >>>> If not, >>>> when do you anticipate an accessible port of Unity? >>>> >>>> Oh, and just so you know, my message wasn't trying to be >>>> inflammatory. I >>>> *was* being a bit snarky but, I happen to live in a free country >>>> where such >>>> things are allowed. I was far more concerned with whether or not I >>>> should >>>> project trying to come back to Ubuntu in April of next year or not. You >>>> see, I happen to be that very odd thing called a fan. I follow them on >>>> Twitter, I like them on facebook, I read about them online and I have >>>> even >>>> hauled off and told my friends about them as a nice way to learn about >>>> Linux. So quit hair splitting and answer the question if you can, >>>> please. >>>> >>>> Thank you. >>>> Alex M >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces at gnome.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Christopher Chaltain >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 2:58 PM >>>> To: Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List >>>> Cc: vinux-support at googlegroups.com; orca-list at gnome.org >>>> Subject: Re: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT >>>> >>>> Unity 2D was pulled from Ubuntu 12.10 and not Ubuntu 12.04. The plan to >>>> focus accessibility efforts in Ubuntu on the LTS releases was meant to >>>> provide the best accessibility solution with the resources available. >>>> This was a transparent decision made with the best information at the >>>> time. >>>> Obviously, desktop plans have changed since then. This was not a >>>> statement >>>> or move just to placate blind Ubuntu users as your message implies. >>>> >>>> On 07/23/2013 01:23 PM, Alex Midence wrote: >>>>> Hi, all, >>>>> >>>>> It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in >>>>> the near future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone >>>>> know the current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all >>>>> disappointed to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu >>>>> 12.04 and it is believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's >>>>> wonderfully accessible legacy. This was supposed to soothe our >>>>> ruffled feathers when 12.10 and >>>>> 13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, >>>>> now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of >>>>> accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even >>>>> more in light of this development. Please see link below: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Alex M >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> orca-list mailing list >>>>> orca-list at gnome.org >>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list >>>>> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. >>>>> The manual is at >>>>> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html >>>>> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions >>>>> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out >>>>> how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Christopher (CJ) >>>> chaltain at Gmail >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> orca-list mailing list >>>> orca-list at gnome.org >>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list >>>> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. >>>> The manual is at >>>> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html >>>> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions >>>> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out >>>> how to >>>> help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> orca-list mailing list >> orca-list at gnome.org >> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list >> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. >> The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html >> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions >> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org >> Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > -- Christopher (CJ) chaltain at Gmail From texou at actux.eu.org Sun Jul 28 13:43:52 2013 From: texou at actux.eu.org (Jean-Philippe MENGUAL) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 15:43:52 +0200 Subject: [orca-list] Subscribing to the Vinux support list [was "Re: VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT"] In-Reply-To: <51F2BE77.2010300@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> <51F1EBC6.4010405@thefudge.net> <20130726130809.GB409@HP> <51F2BE77.2010300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130728134351.GE4527@HP> Hi, On vendredi 26 juil. 2013 à 13:22:47 (-0500), Christopher Chaltain wrote: > If you're trying to subscribe to the Vinux support list, try sending > a blank email message to vinux-support+subscribe at googlegroups.com Thanks, it works. However, all the messages I send now to vinux-support at googlegroups.com don't arrive. Not error but not feedback (I don't receive my own messages and answers). I subscribe a free.fr address. •egards, > > On 07/26/2013 08:08 AM, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote: > >Hi, > > > >Ok, but I cannot subscribe on vinux-list. The only access point I find is > >a javascript interface and I've not a suitable browser. So how can I subscribe? > > > >Anyway, as you say, personally, I've my current am]iers about Vinux and I'll test next week. > > > >Regards, > > > >On vendredi 26 juil. 2013 à 13:23:50 (+1000), Rob Whyte wrote: > >>Hi, > >>I think this thread can be closed now. > >>It has generated a lot of back and fourth and I think we all get the point. > >> > >>If parties involved would like to continue off lists that would be > >>preferable. > >> > >>Kind regards > >>Rob Whyte > >>On 24/07/13 07:31, Christopher Chaltain wrote: > >>>I do not work for Canonical, and my statements on this or any list > >>>have never been anything other than my own opinions. I don't know any > >>>more, and never have, about the plans for Unity accessibility than > >>>anyone else following the Ubuntu blueprints, subscribing to the Ubuntu > >>>accessibility mailing list, logging into the Ubuntu accessibility IRC > >>>channel and attending the accessibility related sessions at UDS. This > >>>is how I know the decision to focus accessibility resources on the LTS > >>>releases was a very open and transparent decision. It was also not an > >>>easy decision to make. I don't personally know at the moment what the > >>>plans are now for the accessibility of Unity and Ubuntu 14.04, but I > >>>assume they haven't changed and this is still the goal. > >>> > >>>I don't think I'm quick to defend Ubuntu or Unity when anyone speaks > >>>out against it, since there isn't enough time in the world for one > >>>person to do this. I do try to point out though when someone misstates > >>>something or says something that can lead to an incorrect inference. I > >>>don't just do this for Ubuntu but other OS's, screen readers, > >>>applications and products where I have some knowledge and experience. > >>> > >>>The fact of the matter is that you stated the decision to focus > >>>accessibility resources on 14.04 was to "sooth our ruffled feathers". > >>>Of course, you have the right to your opinion, and you can be as > >>>snarky as you want (although I don't know what this has to do with > >>>what country your from) but as I read this, it implies that the > >>>developers made this statement to get blind users off their back. I > >>>can assure you, since I was in the room when this was discussed and > >>>this decision was made, that this was not the case. The fact of the > >>>matter, is that it was considered to be the best way to leverage the > >>>precious accessibility resources working on Ubuntu, and it was just as > >>>simple as that. There were no ulterior motives, and there was no > >>>discussion whatsoever on spin or damage control. I understand you > >>>think this may be hair splitting, but I think it's important that > >>>people reading your message understand that the accessibility > >>>developers working on Unity aren't doing anything but being completely > >>>honest and open with the blind Ubuntu/Unity users. I am quick to > >>>defend those developers who are working so hard, many of them giving > >>>from their own spare time, to bring us more accessible solutions. > >>> > >>>BTW, we weren't told this was the way it was going to be. The proposal > >>>was laid out at a session at UDS to be discussed. Anyone could have > >>>attended that session, either in person or via IRC or telephone, and > >>>participated in the discussion. Since resources are so limited, I'm > >>>not sure what other conclusion could have been made though. > >>> > >>>BTW, given previous emails from you, I assumed this wasn't intended to > >>>be inflammatory, but I thought the above inference could be made which > >>>is why I replied as I did. If I'm the only one who made such an > >>>inference then that's great. > >>> > >>>On 07/23/2013 03:41 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > >>>>Placated? No, we weren't placated. We were told that's how it was > >>>>going to > >>>>be and we could suck it up til 14.04. I heard you work for > >>>>Cannonical which > >>>>makes sense since you are extremely quick to defend Ubuntu any time > >>>>anyone > >>>>speaks against it. If this is the case, would you very kindly answer > >>>>the > >>>>million dollar question which was the entire point of my prior message: > >>>> > >>>>Will 14.04 be accessible now that it's going to be qt-based or not? > >>>>If not, > >>>>when do you anticipate an accessible port of Unity? > >>>> > >>>>Oh, and just so you know, my message wasn't trying to be > >>>>inflammatory. I > >>>>*was* being a bit snarky but, I happen to live in a free country > >>>>where such > >>>>things are allowed. I was far more concerned with whether or not I > >>>>should > >>>>project trying to come back to Ubuntu in April of next year or not. You > >>>>see, I happen to be that very odd thing called a fan. I follow them on > >>>>Twitter, I like them on facebook, I read about them online and I have > >>>>even > >>>>hauled off and told my friends about them as a nice way to learn about > >>>>Linux. So quit hair splitting and answer the question if you can, > >>>>please. > >>>> > >>>>Thank you. > >>>>Alex M > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>-----Original Message----- > >>>>From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces at gnome.org] On Behalf Of > >>>>Christopher Chaltain > >>>>Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 2:58 PM > >>>>To: Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List > >>>>Cc: vinux-support at googlegroups.com; orca-list at gnome.org > >>>>Subject: Re: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT > >>>> > >>>>Unity 2D was pulled from Ubuntu 12.10 and not Ubuntu 12.04. The plan to > >>>>focus accessibility efforts in Ubuntu on the LTS releases was meant to > >>>>provide the best accessibility solution with the resources available. > >>>>This was a transparent decision made with the best information at the > >>>>time. > >>>>Obviously, desktop plans have changed since then. This was not a > >>>>statement > >>>>or move just to placate blind Ubuntu users as your message implies. > >>>> > >>>>On 07/23/2013 01:23 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > >>>>>Hi, all, > >>>>> > >>>>>It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in > >>>>>the near future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone > >>>>>know the current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all > >>>>>disappointed to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu > >>>>>12.04 and it is believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's > >>>>>wonderfully accessible legacy. This was supposed to soothe our > >>>>>ruffled feathers when 12.10 and > >>>>>13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, > >>>>>now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of > >>>>>accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even > >>>>>more in light of this development. Please see link below: > >>>>> > >>>>>http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced > >>>>> > >>>>>Regards, > >>>>> > >>>>>Alex M > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>>orca-list mailing list > >>>>>orca-list at gnome.org > >>>>>https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > >>>>>Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > >>>>>The manual is at > >>>>>http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > >>>>>The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > >>>>>Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out > >>>>>how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>-- > >>>>Christopher (CJ) > >>>>chaltain at Gmail > >>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>orca-list mailing list > >>>>orca-list at gnome.org > >>>>https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > >>>>Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > >>>>The manual is at > >>>>http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > >>>>The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > >>>>Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out > >>>>how to > >>>>help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > >>>> > >>> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>orca-list mailing list > >>orca-list at gnome.org > >>https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > >>Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > >>The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > >>The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > >>Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > >>Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > >_______________________________________________ > >orca-list mailing list > >orca-list at gnome.org > >https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > >Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > >The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > >The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > >Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > >Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > > > > -- > Christopher (CJ) > chaltain at Gmail > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp From chaltain at gmail.com Sun Jul 28 21:00:19 2013 From: chaltain at gmail.com (Christopher Chaltain) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 16:00:19 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] Subscribing to the Vinux support list [was "Re: VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT"] In-Reply-To: <20130728134351.GE4527@HP> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> <51F1EBC6.4010405@thefudge.net> <20130726130809.GB409@HP> <51F2BE77.2010300@gmail.com> <20130728134351.GE4527@HP> Message-ID: <51F58663.70305@gmail.com> If you're using a Gmail address then you won't see your own posts to a Google Groups mailing list. On 07/28/2013 08:43 AM, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote: > Hi, > > On vendredi 26 juil. 2013 à 13:22:47 (-0500), Christopher Chaltain wrote: >> If you're trying to subscribe to the Vinux support list, try sending >> a blank email message to vinux-support+subscribe at googlegroups.com > > Thanks, it works. However, all the messages I send now to vinux-support at googlegroups.com don't arrive. Not error but > not feedback (I don't receive my own messages and answers). > I subscribe a free.fr address. > > •egards, > >> >> On 07/26/2013 08:08 AM, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Ok, but I cannot subscribe on vinux-list. The only access point I find is >>> a javascript interface and I've not a suitable browser. So how can I subscribe? >>> >>> Anyway, as you say, personally, I've my current am]iers about Vinux and I'll test next week. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> On vendredi 26 juil. 2013 à 13:23:50 (+1000), Rob Whyte wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> I think this thread can be closed now. >>>> It has generated a lot of back and fourth and I think we all get the point. >>>> >>>> If parties involved would like to continue off lists that would be >>>> preferable. >>>> >>>> Kind regards >>>> Rob Whyte >>>> On 24/07/13 07:31, Christopher Chaltain wrote: >>>>> I do not work for Canonical, and my statements on this or any list >>>>> have never been anything other than my own opinions. I don't know any >>>>> more, and never have, about the plans for Unity accessibility than >>>>> anyone else following the Ubuntu blueprints, subscribing to the Ubuntu >>>>> accessibility mailing list, logging into the Ubuntu accessibility IRC >>>>> channel and attending the accessibility related sessions at UDS. This >>>>> is how I know the decision to focus accessibility resources on the LTS >>>>> releases was a very open and transparent decision. It was also not an >>>>> easy decision to make. I don't personally know at the moment what the >>>>> plans are now for the accessibility of Unity and Ubuntu 14.04, but I >>>>> assume they haven't changed and this is still the goal. >>>>> >>>>> I don't think I'm quick to defend Ubuntu or Unity when anyone speaks >>>>> out against it, since there isn't enough time in the world for one >>>>> person to do this. I do try to point out though when someone misstates >>>>> something or says something that can lead to an incorrect inference. I >>>>> don't just do this for Ubuntu but other OS's, screen readers, >>>>> applications and products where I have some knowledge and experience. >>>>> >>>>> The fact of the matter is that you stated the decision to focus >>>>> accessibility resources on 14.04 was to "sooth our ruffled feathers". >>>>> Of course, you have the right to your opinion, and you can be as >>>>> snarky as you want (although I don't know what this has to do with >>>>> what country your from) but as I read this, it implies that the >>>>> developers made this statement to get blind users off their back. I >>>>> can assure you, since I was in the room when this was discussed and >>>>> this decision was made, that this was not the case. The fact of the >>>>> matter, is that it was considered to be the best way to leverage the >>>>> precious accessibility resources working on Ubuntu, and it was just as >>>>> simple as that. There were no ulterior motives, and there was no >>>>> discussion whatsoever on spin or damage control. I understand you >>>>> think this may be hair splitting, but I think it's important that >>>>> people reading your message understand that the accessibility >>>>> developers working on Unity aren't doing anything but being completely >>>>> honest and open with the blind Ubuntu/Unity users. I am quick to >>>>> defend those developers who are working so hard, many of them giving >>>> >from their own spare time, to bring us more accessible solutions. >>>>> >>>>> BTW, we weren't told this was the way it was going to be. The proposal >>>>> was laid out at a session at UDS to be discussed. Anyone could have >>>>> attended that session, either in person or via IRC or telephone, and >>>>> participated in the discussion. Since resources are so limited, I'm >>>>> not sure what other conclusion could have been made though. >>>>> >>>>> BTW, given previous emails from you, I assumed this wasn't intended to >>>>> be inflammatory, but I thought the above inference could be made which >>>>> is why I replied as I did. If I'm the only one who made such an >>>>> inference then that's great. >>>>> >>>>> On 07/23/2013 03:41 PM, Alex Midence wrote: >>>>>> Placated? No, we weren't placated. We were told that's how it was >>>>>> going to >>>>>> be and we could suck it up til 14.04. I heard you work for >>>>>> Cannonical which >>>>>> makes sense since you are extremely quick to defend Ubuntu any time >>>>>> anyone >>>>>> speaks against it. If this is the case, would you very kindly answer >>>>>> the >>>>>> million dollar question which was the entire point of my prior message: >>>>>> >>>>>> Will 14.04 be accessible now that it's going to be qt-based or not? >>>>>> If not, >>>>>> when do you anticipate an accessible port of Unity? >>>>>> >>>>>> Oh, and just so you know, my message wasn't trying to be >>>>>> inflammatory. I >>>>>> *was* being a bit snarky but, I happen to live in a free country >>>>>> where such >>>>>> things are allowed. I was far more concerned with whether or not I >>>>>> should >>>>>> project trying to come back to Ubuntu in April of next year or not. You >>>>>> see, I happen to be that very odd thing called a fan. I follow them on >>>>>> Twitter, I like them on facebook, I read about them online and I have >>>>>> even >>>>>> hauled off and told my friends about them as a nice way to learn about >>>>>> Linux. So quit hair splitting and answer the question if you can, >>>>>> please. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you. >>>>>> Alex M >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces at gnome.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Christopher Chaltain >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 2:58 PM >>>>>> To: Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List >>>>>> Cc: vinux-support at googlegroups.com; orca-list at gnome.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT >>>>>> >>>>>> Unity 2D was pulled from Ubuntu 12.10 and not Ubuntu 12.04. The plan to >>>>>> focus accessibility efforts in Ubuntu on the LTS releases was meant to >>>>>> provide the best accessibility solution with the resources available. >>>>>> This was a transparent decision made with the best information at the >>>>>> time. >>>>>> Obviously, desktop plans have changed since then. This was not a >>>>>> statement >>>>>> or move just to placate blind Ubuntu users as your message implies. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 07/23/2013 01:23 PM, Alex Midence wrote: >>>>>>> Hi, all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in >>>>>>> the near future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone >>>>>>> know the current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all >>>>>>> disappointed to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu >>>>>>> 12.04 and it is believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's >>>>>>> wonderfully accessible legacy. This was supposed to soothe our >>>>>>> ruffled feathers when 12.10 and >>>>>>> 13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, >>>>>>> now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of >>>>>>> accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even >>>>>>> more in light of this development. Please see link below: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alex M >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> orca-list mailing list >>>>>>> orca-list at gnome.org >>>>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list >>>>>>> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. >>>>>>> The manual is at >>>>>>> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html >>>>>>> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions >>>>>>> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out >>>>>>> how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Christopher (CJ) >>>>>> chaltain at Gmail >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> orca-list mailing list >>>>>> orca-list at gnome.org >>>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list >>>>>> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. >>>>>> The manual is at >>>>>> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html >>>>>> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions >>>>>> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out >>>>>> how to >>>>>> help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> orca-list mailing list >>>> orca-list at gnome.org >>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list >>>> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. >>>> The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html >>>> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions >>>> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org >>>> Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp >>> _______________________________________________ >>> orca-list mailing list >>> orca-list at gnome.org >>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list >>> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. >>> The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html >>> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions >>> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org >>> Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp >>> >> >> -- >> Christopher (CJ) >> chaltain at Gmail >> _______________________________________________ >> orca-list mailing list >> orca-list at gnome.org >> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list >> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. >> The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html >> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions >> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org >> Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp -- Christopher (CJ) chaltain at Gmail From texou at actux.eu.org Sun Jul 28 13:43:52 2013 From: texou at actux.eu.org (Jean-Philippe MENGUAL) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 15:43:52 +0200 Subject: [orca-list] Subscribing to the Vinux support list [was "Re: VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT"] In-Reply-To: <51F2BE77.2010300@gmail.com> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> <51F1EBC6.4010405@thefudge.net> <20130726130809.GB409@HP> <51F2BE77.2010300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130728134351.GE4527@HP> Hi, On vendredi 26 juil. 2013 à 13:22:47 (-0500), Christopher Chaltain wrote: > If you're trying to subscribe to the Vinux support list, try sending > a blank email message to vinux-support+subscribe at googlegroups.com Thanks, it works. However, all the messages I send now to vinux-support at googlegroups.com don't arrive. Not error but not feedback (I don't receive my own messages and answers). I subscribe a free.fr address. •egards, > > On 07/26/2013 08:08 AM, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote: > >Hi, > > > >Ok, but I cannot subscribe on vinux-list. The only access point I find is > >a javascript interface and I've not a suitable browser. So how can I subscribe? > > > >Anyway, as you say, personally, I've my current am]iers about Vinux and I'll test next week. > > > >Regards, > > > >On vendredi 26 juil. 2013 à 13:23:50 (+1000), Rob Whyte wrote: > >>Hi, > >>I think this thread can be closed now. > >>It has generated a lot of back and fourth and I think we all get the point. > >> > >>If parties involved would like to continue off lists that would be > >>preferable. > >> > >>Kind regards > >>Rob Whyte > >>On 24/07/13 07:31, Christopher Chaltain wrote: > >>>I do not work for Canonical, and my statements on this or any list > >>>have never been anything other than my own opinions. I don't know any > >>>more, and never have, about the plans for Unity accessibility than > >>>anyone else following the Ubuntu blueprints, subscribing to the Ubuntu > >>>accessibility mailing list, logging into the Ubuntu accessibility IRC > >>>channel and attending the accessibility related sessions at UDS. This > >>>is how I know the decision to focus accessibility resources on the LTS > >>>releases was a very open and transparent decision. It was also not an > >>>easy decision to make. I don't personally know at the moment what the > >>>plans are now for the accessibility of Unity and Ubuntu 14.04, but I > >>>assume they haven't changed and this is still the goal. > >>> > >>>I don't think I'm quick to defend Ubuntu or Unity when anyone speaks > >>>out against it, since there isn't enough time in the world for one > >>>person to do this. I do try to point out though when someone misstates > >>>something or says something that can lead to an incorrect inference. I > >>>don't just do this for Ubuntu but other OS's, screen readers, > >>>applications and products where I have some knowledge and experience. > >>> > >>>The fact of the matter is that you stated the decision to focus > >>>accessibility resources on 14.04 was to "sooth our ruffled feathers". > >>>Of course, you have the right to your opinion, and you can be as > >>>snarky as you want (although I don't know what this has to do with > >>>what country your from) but as I read this, it implies that the > >>>developers made this statement to get blind users off their back. I > >>>can assure you, since I was in the room when this was discussed and > >>>this decision was made, that this was not the case. The fact of the > >>>matter, is that it was considered to be the best way to leverage the > >>>precious accessibility resources working on Ubuntu, and it was just as > >>>simple as that. There were no ulterior motives, and there was no > >>>discussion whatsoever on spin or damage control. I understand you > >>>think this may be hair splitting, but I think it's important that > >>>people reading your message understand that the accessibility > >>>developers working on Unity aren't doing anything but being completely > >>>honest and open with the blind Ubuntu/Unity users. I am quick to > >>>defend those developers who are working so hard, many of them giving > >>>from their own spare time, to bring us more accessible solutions. > >>> > >>>BTW, we weren't told this was the way it was going to be. The proposal > >>>was laid out at a session at UDS to be discussed. Anyone could have > >>>attended that session, either in person or via IRC or telephone, and > >>>participated in the discussion. Since resources are so limited, I'm > >>>not sure what other conclusion could have been made though. > >>> > >>>BTW, given previous emails from you, I assumed this wasn't intended to > >>>be inflammatory, but I thought the above inference could be made which > >>>is why I replied as I did. If I'm the only one who made such an > >>>inference then that's great. > >>> > >>>On 07/23/2013 03:41 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > >>>>Placated? No, we weren't placated. We were told that's how it was > >>>>going to > >>>>be and we could suck it up til 14.04. I heard you work for > >>>>Cannonical which > >>>>makes sense since you are extremely quick to defend Ubuntu any time > >>>>anyone > >>>>speaks against it. If this is the case, would you very kindly answer > >>>>the > >>>>million dollar question which was the entire point of my prior message: > >>>> > >>>>Will 14.04 be accessible now that it's going to be qt-based or not? > >>>>If not, > >>>>when do you anticipate an accessible port of Unity? > >>>> > >>>>Oh, and just so you know, my message wasn't trying to be > >>>>inflammatory. I > >>>>*was* being a bit snarky but, I happen to live in a free country > >>>>where such > >>>>things are allowed. I was far more concerned with whether or not I > >>>>should > >>>>project trying to come back to Ubuntu in April of next year or not. You > >>>>see, I happen to be that very odd thing called a fan. I follow them on > >>>>Twitter, I like them on facebook, I read about them online and I have > >>>>even > >>>>hauled off and told my friends about them as a nice way to learn about > >>>>Linux. So quit hair splitting and answer the question if you can, > >>>>please. > >>>> > >>>>Thank you. > >>>>Alex M > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>-----Original Message----- > >>>>From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces at gnome.org] On Behalf Of > >>>>Christopher Chaltain > >>>>Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 2:58 PM > >>>>To: Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List > >>>>Cc: vinux-support at googlegroups.com; orca-list at gnome.org > >>>>Subject: Re: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT > >>>> > >>>>Unity 2D was pulled from Ubuntu 12.10 and not Ubuntu 12.04. The plan to > >>>>focus accessibility efforts in Ubuntu on the LTS releases was meant to > >>>>provide the best accessibility solution with the resources available. > >>>>This was a transparent decision made with the best information at the > >>>>time. > >>>>Obviously, desktop plans have changed since then. This was not a > >>>>statement > >>>>or move just to placate blind Ubuntu users as your message implies. > >>>> > >>>>On 07/23/2013 01:23 PM, Alex Midence wrote: > >>>>>Hi, all, > >>>>> > >>>>>It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in > >>>>>the near future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone > >>>>>know the current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all > >>>>>disappointed to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu > >>>>>12.04 and it is believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's > >>>>>wonderfully accessible legacy. This was supposed to soothe our > >>>>>ruffled feathers when 12.10 and > >>>>>13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, > >>>>>now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of > >>>>>accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even > >>>>>more in light of this development. Please see link below: > >>>>> > >>>>>http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced > >>>>> > >>>>>Regards, > >>>>> > >>>>>Alex M > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>>orca-list mailing list > >>>>>orca-list at gnome.org > >>>>>https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > >>>>>Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > >>>>>The manual is at > >>>>>http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > >>>>>The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > >>>>>Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out > >>>>>how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>-- > >>>>Christopher (CJ) > >>>>chaltain at Gmail > >>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>orca-list mailing list > >>>>orca-list at gnome.org > >>>>https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > >>>>Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > >>>>The manual is at > >>>>http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > >>>>The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > >>>>Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out > >>>>how to > >>>>help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > >>>> > >>> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>orca-list mailing list > >>orca-list at gnome.org > >>https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > >>Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > >>The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > >>The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > >>Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > >>Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > >_______________________________________________ > >orca-list mailing list > >orca-list at gnome.org > >https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > >Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > >The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > >The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > >Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > >Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > > > > -- > Christopher (CJ) > chaltain at Gmail > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp _______________________________________________ orca-list mailing list orca-list at gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp From chaltain at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 18:22:47 2013 From: chaltain at gmail.com (Christopher Chaltain) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 13:22:47 -0500 Subject: [orca-list] Subscribing to the Vinux support list [was "Re: VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT"] In-Reply-To: <20130726130809.GB409@HP> References: <014001ce87d1$c65b7440$53125cc0$@gmail.com> <51EEE049.2050308@gmail.com> <019f01ce87e5$04863d50$0d92b7f0$@gmail.com> <51EEF618.3010903@gmail.com> <51F1EBC6.4010405@thefudge.net> <20130726130809.GB409@HP> Message-ID: <51F2BE77.2010300@gmail.com> If you're trying to subscribe to the Vinux support list, try sending a blank email message to vinux-support+subscribe at googlegroups.com On 07/26/2013 08:08 AM, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote: > Hi, > > Ok, but I cannot subscribe on vinux-list. The only access point I find is > a javascript interface and I've not a suitable browser. So how can I subscribe? > > Anyway, as you say, personally, I've my current am]iers about Vinux and I'll test next week. > > Regards, > > On vendredi 26 juil. 2013 à 13:23:50 (+1000), Rob Whyte wrote: >> Hi, >> I think this thread can be closed now. >> It has generated a lot of back and fourth and I think we all get the point. >> >> If parties involved would like to continue off lists that would be >> preferable. >> >> Kind regards >> Rob Whyte >> On 24/07/13 07:31, Christopher Chaltain wrote: >>> I do not work for Canonical, and my statements on this or any list >>> have never been anything other than my own opinions. I don't know any >>> more, and never have, about the plans for Unity accessibility than >>> anyone else following the Ubuntu blueprints, subscribing to the Ubuntu >>> accessibility mailing list, logging into the Ubuntu accessibility IRC >>> channel and attending the accessibility related sessions at UDS. This >>> is how I know the decision to focus accessibility resources on the LTS >>> releases was a very open and transparent decision. It was also not an >>> easy decision to make. I don't personally know at the moment what the >>> plans are now for the accessibility of Unity and Ubuntu 14.04, but I >>> assume they haven't changed and this is still the goal. >>> >>> I don't think I'm quick to defend Ubuntu or Unity when anyone speaks >>> out against it, since there isn't enough time in the world for one >>> person to do this. I do try to point out though when someone misstates >>> something or says something that can lead to an incorrect inference. I >>> don't just do this for Ubuntu but other OS's, screen readers, >>> applications and products where I have some knowledge and experience. >>> >>> The fact of the matter is that you stated the decision to focus >>> accessibility resources on 14.04 was to "sooth our ruffled feathers". >>> Of course, you have the right to your opinion, and you can be as >>> snarky as you want (although I don't know what this has to do with >>> what country your from) but as I read this, it implies that the >>> developers made this statement to get blind users off their back. I >>> can assure you, since I was in the room when this was discussed and >>> this decision was made, that this was not the case. The fact of the >>> matter, is that it was considered to be the best way to leverage the >>> precious accessibility resources working on Ubuntu, and it was just as >>> simple as that. There were no ulterior motives, and there was no >>> discussion whatsoever on spin or damage control. I understand you >>> think this may be hair splitting, but I think it's important that >>> people reading your message understand that the accessibility >>> developers working on Unity aren't doing anything but being completely >>> honest and open with the blind Ubuntu/Unity users. I am quick to >>> defend those developers who are working so hard, many of them giving >>> from their own spare time, to bring us more accessible solutions. >>> >>> BTW, we weren't told this was the way it was going to be. The proposal >>> was laid out at a session at UDS to be discussed. Anyone could have >>> attended that session, either in person or via IRC or telephone, and >>> participated in the discussion. Since resources are so limited, I'm >>> not sure what other conclusion could have been made though. >>> >>> BTW, given previous emails from you, I assumed this wasn't intended to >>> be inflammatory, but I thought the above inference could be made which >>> is why I replied as I did. If I'm the only one who made such an >>> inference then that's great. >>> >>> On 07/23/2013 03:41 PM, Alex Midence wrote: >>>> Placated? No, we weren't placated. We were told that's how it was >>>> going to >>>> be and we could suck it up til 14.04. I heard you work for >>>> Cannonical which >>>> makes sense since you are extremely quick to defend Ubuntu any time >>>> anyone >>>> speaks against it. If this is the case, would you very kindly answer >>>> the >>>> million dollar question which was the entire point of my prior message: >>>> >>>> Will 14.04 be accessible now that it's going to be qt-based or not? >>>> If not, >>>> when do you anticipate an accessible port of Unity? >>>> >>>> Oh, and just so you know, my message wasn't trying to be >>>> inflammatory. I >>>> *was* being a bit snarky but, I happen to live in a free country >>>> where such >>>> things are allowed. I was far more concerned with whether or not I >>>> should >>>> project trying to come back to Ubuntu in April of next year or not. You >>>> see, I happen to be that very odd thing called a fan. I follow them on >>>> Twitter, I like them on facebook, I read about them online and I have >>>> even >>>> hauled off and told my friends about them as a nice way to learn about >>>> Linux. So quit hair splitting and answer the question if you can, >>>> please. >>>> >>>> Thank you. >>>> Alex M >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces at gnome.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Christopher Chaltain >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 2:58 PM >>>> To: Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List >>>> Cc: vinux-support at googlegroups.com; orca-list at gnome.org >>>> Subject: Re: [orca-list] Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT >>>> >>>> Unity 2D was pulled from Ubuntu 12.10 and not Ubuntu 12.04. The plan to >>>> focus accessibility efforts in Ubuntu on the LTS releases was meant to >>>> provide the best accessibility solution with the resources available. >>>> This was a transparent decision made with the best information at the >>>> time. >>>> Obviously, desktop plans have changed since then. This was not a >>>> statement >>>> or move just to placate blind Ubuntu users as your message implies. >>>> >>>> On 07/23/2013 01:23 PM, Alex Midence wrote: >>>>> Hi, all, >>>>> >>>>> It looks like Ubuntu's Unity desktop will be switching to QT/QML in >>>>> the near future. It looks like they'll be using QT5. Does anyone >>>>> know the current state of accessibility for qt5 or QML? We were all >>>>> disappointed to find out that Unity 2d was discontinued in Ubuntu >>>>> 12.04 and it is believed that Ubuntu 14.04 would continue it's >>>>> wonderfully accessible legacy. This was supposed to soothe our >>>>> ruffled feathers when 12.10 and >>>>> 13.04 came out with Unity 3d only which was not as accessible. Well, >>>>> now, I am curious to know if the timetable for that level of >>>>> accessibility in a Ubuntu desktop will need to be pushed back even >>>>> more in light of this development. Please see link below: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Alex M >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> orca-list mailing list >>>>> orca-list at gnome.org >>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list >>>>> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. >>>>> The manual is at >>>>> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html >>>>> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions >>>>> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out >>>>> how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Christopher (CJ) >>>> chaltain at Gmail >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> orca-list mailing list >>>> orca-list at gnome.org >>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list >>>> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. >>>> The manual is at >>>> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html >>>> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions >>>> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out >>>> how to >>>> help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> orca-list mailing list >> orca-list at gnome.org >> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list >> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. >> The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html >> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions >> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org >> Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > _______________________________________________ > orca-list mailing list > orca-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. > The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp > -- Christopher (CJ) chaltain at Gmail _______________________________________________ orca-list mailing list orca-list at gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp From gervin at cableone.net Tue Jul 30 04:29:47 2013 From: gervin at cableone.net (Lenny) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 23:29:47 -0500 Subject: Latest Ubuntu? Message-ID: Hi, I have heard of a Gnome remix, presumably on the latest Ubuntu? Or is the stock version of the latest Ubuntu the most accessible? I just put together a dead laptop with Vista Business on it, and I left 20 GB of unallocated space on the HD for Ubuntu. I'm most familiar with Gnome, but if Unity or whatever is just as accessible, then I'll be okay with that. I just don't want to deal with struggling with the accessibility part. I will be using Orca with Voxin. Since I have a new setup, I don't want to drop back to an older Ubuntu unless accessibility is a problem. I may try a VM install of the windows in the Ubuntu. Thanks for any thoughts. Glenn From themuso at ubuntu.com Tue Jul 30 05:05:24 2013 From: themuso at ubuntu.com (Luke Yelavich) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 15:05:24 +1000 Subject: Latest Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130730050524.GA4584@acapella> On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 02:29:47PM EST, Lenny wrote: > Hi, > I have heard of a Gnome remix, presumably on the latest Ubuntu? > Or is the stock version of the latest Ubuntu the most accessible? I would recommend the GNOME based remix of Ubuntu 13.04, and I think Canonical also host it. I think you will find it on http://releases.ubuntu.com. Luke