From gErvin at cableone.net Wed Mar 7 01:03:52 2018 From: gErvin at cableone.net (Glenn At Home) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 19:03:52 -0600 Subject: Oricle Virtual Box Message-ID: <46CAF9DC3DA6430ABB372E85EB32F384@NUCPPYH> Hi, Today I downloaded Oracle Virtual Box and installed it on Windows 7. It is on a 64 bit machine with adequate RAM. I loaded Ubuntu 16.4.3-i386 version. It said it was running. I could not load up Orca. Using the left control and S, the alt + windows + S nor alt + F2 and running orca worked. I was using an ISO that I have installed onto USB and DVD before, so the ISO is good. Any pointers? Thanks. Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nick at microlitesoftware.co.uk Wed Mar 7 07:19:49 2018 From: nick at microlitesoftware.co.uk (Nick Wood) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 07:19:49 +0000 Subject: Oricle Virtual Box In-Reply-To: <46CAF9DC3DA6430ABB372E85EB32F384@NUCPPYH> References: <46CAF9DC3DA6430ABB372E85EB32F384@NUCPPYH> Message-ID: <0a324f7e-1051-7c2d-8e80-40dceed58c06@microlitesoftware.co.uk> Hi Glenn, Its a long shot I know, but have you made sure that VirtualBox has the keyboard focus before pressing the Orca shortcut keys? I'm not familiar with VirtualBox, but with VMWare you have to press Ctrl+G so that VMWare grabs the keyboard input and sends it to the guest operating system. Regards, Nick On 07/03/18 01:03, Glenn At Home wrote: > Hi, > Today I downloaded Oracle Virtual Box and installed it on Windows 7. > It is on a 64 bit machine with adequate RAM. > I loaded Ubuntu 16.4.3-i386 version. > It said it was running. > I could not load up Orca. > Using the left control and S, the alt + windows + S nor alt + F2 and > running orca worked. > I was using an ISO that I have installed onto USB and DVD before, so the > ISO is good. > Any pointers? > Thanks. > Glenn > > From mjonsson1986 at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 07:33:30 2018 From: mjonsson1986 at gmail.com (mattias jonsson) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 08:33:30 +0100 Subject: SV: Oricle Virtual Box In-Reply-To: <0a324f7e-1051-7c2d-8e80-40dceed58c06@microlitesoftware.co.uk> References: <46CAF9DC3DA6430ABB372E85EB32F384@NUCPPYH> <0a324f7e-1051-7c2d-8e80-40dceed58c06@microlitesoftware.co.uk> Message-ID: <5a9f95c7.c2c3500a.a60b.7a3e@mx.google.com> And how to use vb if you are blind annyway? Skickades från E-post för Windows 10 Från: Nick Wood Skickat: den 7 mars 2018 08:20 Till: ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com Ämne: Re: Oricle Virtual Box Hi Glenn, Its a long shot I know, but have you made sure that VirtualBox has the keyboard focus before pressing the Orca shortcut keys? I'm not familiar with VirtualBox, but with VMWare you have to press Ctrl+G so that VMWare grabs the keyboard input and sends it to the guest operating system. Regards, Nick On 07/03/18 01:03, Glenn At Home wrote: > Hi, > Today I downloaded Oracle Virtual Box and installed it on Windows 7. > It is on a 64 bit machine with adequate RAM. > I loaded Ubuntu 16.4.3-i386 version. > It said it was running. > I could not load up Orca. > Using the left control and S, the alt + windows + S nor alt + F2 and > running orca worked. > I was using an ISO that I have installed onto USB and DVD before, so the > ISO is good. > Any pointers? > Thanks. > Glenn > > -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjonsson1986 at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 07:53:17 2018 From: mjonsson1986 at gmail.com (mattias jonsson) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 08:53:17 +0100 Subject: SV: Oricle Virtual Box In-Reply-To: <46CAF9DC3DA6430ABB372E85EB32F384@NUCPPYH> References: <46CAF9DC3DA6430ABB372E85EB32F384@NUCPPYH> Message-ID: <5a9f9a6b.02a1df0a.14a1a.6b07@mx.google.com> Glenn i asume you are blind? How do you use the virtualbox gui? Skickades från E-post för Windows 10 Från: Glenn At Home Skickat: den 7 mars 2018 02:03 Till: Ubuntu List Ämne: Oricle Virtual Box Hi, Today I downloaded Oracle Virtual Box and installed it on Windows 7. It is on a 64 bit machine with adequate RAM. I loaded Ubuntu 16.4.3-i386 version. It said it was running. I could not load up Orca. Using the left control and S, the alt + windows + S nor alt + F2 and running orca worked. I was using an ISO that I have installed onto USB and DVD before, so the ISO is good. Any pointers? Thanks. Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gErvin at cableone.net Wed Mar 7 14:37:11 2018 From: gErvin at cableone.net (Glenn At Home) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 08:37:11 -0600 Subject: Oricle Virtual Box In-Reply-To: <5a9f9a6b.02a1df0a.14a1a.6b07@mx.google.com> References: <46CAF9DC3DA6430ABB372E85EB32F384@NUCPPYH> <5a9f9a6b.02a1df0a.14a1a.6b07@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <9988DBFC40C04AD1B1C8143901F54AAB@NUCPPYH> It wasn't easy, I copied the file name and pasted it in the field and when it could not find it, the browse window was accessible, and I browsed to the location. But after that, the only feedback I got was that the machine was running. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: mattias jonsson To: Glenn At Home ; Ubuntu List Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2018 1:53 AM Subject: SV: Oricle Virtual Box Glenn i asume you are blind? How do you use the virtualbox gui? Skickades från E-post för Windows 10 Från: Glenn At Home Skickat: den 7 mars 2018 02:03 Till: Ubuntu List Ämne: Oricle Virtual Box Hi, Today I downloaded Oracle Virtual Box and installed it on Windows 7. It is on a 64 bit machine with adequate RAM. I loaded Ubuntu 16.4.3-i386 version. It said it was running. I could not load up Orca. Using the left control and S, the alt + windows + S nor alt + F2 and running orca worked. I was using an ISO that I have installed onto USB and DVD before, so the ISO is good. Any pointers? Thanks. Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gErvin at cableone.net Thu Mar 8 00:45:03 2018 From: gErvin at cableone.net (Glenn At Home) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 18:45:03 -0600 Subject: Oracle VirtualBox Message-ID: Hi Nick, Control + G did not seem to do anything, but The left control key alone gives the opportunity to pass through a keystroke. I think that is for doing something on the host computer. Thanks though. Glenn Message-ID: <0a324f7e-1051-7c2d-8e80-40dceed58c06 at microlitesoftware.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Hi Glenn, Its a long shot I know, but have you made sure that VirtualBox has the keyboard focus before pressing the Orca shortcut keys? I'm not familiar with VirtualBox, but with VMWare you have to press Ctrl+G so that VMWare grabs the keyboard input and sends it to the guest operating system. Regards, Nick On 07/03/18 01:03, Glenn At Home wrote: > Hi, > Today I downloaded Oracle Virtual Box and installed it on Windows 7. > It is on a 64 bit machine with adequate RAM. > I loaded Ubuntu 16.4.3-i386 version. > It said it was running. > I could not load up Orca. > Using the left control and S, the alt + windows + S nor alt + F2 and > running orca worked. > I was using an ISO that I have installed onto USB and DVD before, so the > ISO is good. > Any pointers? > Thanks. > Glenn > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gErvin at cableone.net Thu Mar 8 12:51:00 2018 From: gErvin at cableone.net (Glenn At Home) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 06:51:00 -0600 Subject: Oracle VirtualBox Message-ID: <6AD43A507308449EA179BA5C587E917B@NUCPPYH> A correction: Actually, it is the right control key that brings up a key pass-through option. Glenn Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 18:45:03 -0600 From: "Glenn At Home" To: "Ubuntu List" Subject: Oracle VirtualBox Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Nick, Control + G did not seem to do anything, but The left control key alone gives the opportunity to pass through a keystroke. I think that is for doing something on the host computer. Thanks though. Glenn Message-ID: <0a324f7e-1051-7c2d-8e80-40dceed58c06 at microlitesoftware.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Hi Glenn, Its a long shot I know, but have you made sure that VirtualBox has the keyboard focus before pressing the Orca shortcut keys? I'm not familiar with VirtualBox, but with VMWare you have to press Ctrl+G so that VMWare grabs the keyboard input and sends it to the guest operating system. Regards, Nick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ilovecountrymusic483 at outlook.com Sat Mar 10 22:09:00 2018 From: ilovecountrymusic483 at outlook.com (matthew dyer) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 22:09:00 +0000 Subject: Ubuntu mate 17.10 mate addition and unable to read the menus. Message-ID: Evening all. Running ubuntu mate 17.10 orca 3.26, and mate 1.18.  The mate menus are silent.  Pressing ault f1 gives no speach.  If I launch ing the terminal is fine.  I tried the following command with no resault.  gsettings set org.mate.interface accessibility true. This was after I did a clean install and updated all packages.  If anyone else has any ideas on how to fix this please let me know. I filed a bug on this one but wanted to see if anyone else has had this problem.  I am running in a vm if this matters. Thanks. Matthew From gErvin at cableone.net Sun Mar 11 17:06:12 2018 From: gErvin at cableone.net (Glenn At Home) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 12:06:12 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu mate 17.10 mate addition and unable to read the menus. Message-ID: <445A0D77F84C4666BFD5E2F2E583C510@NUCPPYH> I had this trouble with the same version on a live copy running from a thumb drive and on a laptop I had installed it to. I just went back to 16.4.3. But I'm glad to see that someone else had that, and it wasn't a corrupt download or something on my end. Not that I'm glad you had the difficulty too though. Glenn Subject: Ubuntu mate 17.10 mate addition and unable to read the menus. Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Evening all. Running ubuntu mate 17.10 orca 3.26, and mate 1.18. The mate menus are silent. Pressing ault f1 gives no speach. If I launch ing the terminal is fine. I tried the following command with no resault. gsettings set org.mate.interface accessibility true. This was after I did a clean install and updated all packages. If anyone else has any ideas on how to fix this please let me know. I filed a bug on this one but wanted to see if anyone else has had this problem. I am running in a vm if this matters. Thanks. Matthew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexarnaud at hypra.fr Sun Mar 11 17:34:50 2018 From: alexarnaud at hypra.fr (Alex ARNAUD) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 18:34:50 +0100 Subject: Ubuntu mate 17.10 mate addition and unable to read the menus. In-Reply-To: <445A0D77F84C4666BFD5E2F2E583C510@NUCPPYH> References: <445A0D77F84C4666BFD5E2F2E583C510@NUCPPYH> Message-ID: <4c6a65bb-077e-6020-baef-9cbf5135beaf@hypra.fr> Le 11/03/2018 à 18:06, Glenn At Home a écrit : > I had this trouble with the same version on a live copy running from a > thumb drive and on a laptop I had installed it to. > I just went back to 16.4.3. > But I'm glad to see that someone else had that, and it wasn't a corrupt > download or something on my end. > Not that I'm glad you had the difficulty too though. Could you restart the menu with "mate-panel --replace" from the run dialog (alt+f2) and tell me if it solves the issue for you ? If yes, I suspect the new greeter from Lightdm to be the culprit. Could you try to remove slick-greeter and install lightdm-gtk-greeter ? Be aware of potential issues when switching of greeter, I just advise you stuff I don't use myself because I'm on Debian and Debian uses lightdm-gtk-greeter by default. Best regards, Alex. From gErvin at cableone.net Sun Mar 11 17:40:13 2018 From: gErvin at cableone.net (Glenn At Home) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 12:40:13 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu mate 17.10 mate addition and unable to read the menus. In-Reply-To: References: <445A0D77F84C4666BFD5E2F2E583C510@NUCPPYH> Message-ID: Alex, I don't have 17 now, I just wiped the drive and put 16 on it. I was searching the web for solutions like what you wrote, but all I found involved editing some conf files and some long commands, and if I had someone reading them to me, I'd be glad to try them, but sometimes I hate remembering while I go back and forth from one computer to the other to enter long strings. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex ARNAUD" To: "Glenn At Home" ; "Ubuntu List" Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 12:29 PM Subject: Re: Ubuntu mate 17.10 mate addition and unable to read the menus. Le 11/03/2018 à 18:06, Glenn At Home a écrit : > I had this trouble with the same version on a live copy running from a > thumb drive and on a laptop I had installed it to. > I just went back to 16.4.3. > But I'm glad to see that someone else had that, and it wasn't a corrupt > download or something on my end. > Not that I'm glad you had the difficulty too though. Could you restart the menu with "mate-panel --replace" from the run dialog (alt+f2) and tell me if it solves the issue for you ? If yes, I suspect the new greeter from Lightdm to be the culprit. Could you try to remove slick-greeter and install lightdm-gtk-greeter ? Be aware of potential issues when switching of greeter, I just advise you stuff I don't use myself because I'm on Debian and Debian uses lightdm-gtk-greeter by default. Best regards, Alex. From alexarnaud at hypra.fr Mon Mar 19 16:52:38 2018 From: alexarnaud at hypra.fr (Alex ARNAUD) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 17:52:38 +0100 Subject: Accessibility for person with a motor disability Message-ID: <222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> Hello all, To help people with motor disability, I'm trying to search what software and technologies exist on GNU/Linux. Sorry for the cross-list post but I don't know where to ask for help. I've already found the following software: * dasher: for writing text * eviacam: a head tracking software * mousetrap: another head tracking software * onboard: a configurable on-screen keyboard My questions are: * Do you know if there is eye-tracking software? * Does head-tracking is really efficient? * Do you know if there are other useful application? * Do you know how to use the numeric keyboard to move the mouse on Mate? * Is there a mailing list or forum where there are people with motor disability using GNU/Linux? Best regards. -- Alex ARNAUD Visual-Impairment Project Manager Hypra - "Humanizing technology" From greggvan at umd.edu Mon Mar 19 17:03:31 2018 From: greggvan at umd.edu (Gregg Vanderheiden GPII) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 13:03:31 -0400 Subject: Accessibility for person with a motor disability In-Reply-To: <28093_1521478371_0P5U00E4TK81W730_222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> References: <28093_1521478371_0P5U00E4TK81W730_222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> Message-ID: have you tried the Unified Listing? http://ul.gpii.net part of http://GPII.net use advanced search (or standard search) and type Linux in the search box. I found 63 hardware and software accessibility products that cite LINUX in their descriptions. Don’t see any eye trackers listed - but you can check with the mfgrs of all of the 30 products that include "eye track” in their descriptions to see if any work with LINUX. (if you find one - please leave a note using the handy feature at the bottom of every page — so we can get LINUX added to the description. best Gregg > On Mar 19, 2018, at 12:52 PM, Alex ARNAUD wrote: > > Hello all, > > To help people with motor disability, I'm trying to search what software and technologies exist on GNU/Linux. > > Sorry for the cross-list post but I don't know where to ask for help. > > I've already found the following software: > * dasher: for writing text > * eviacam: a head tracking software > * mousetrap: another head tracking software > * onboard: a configurable on-screen keyboard > > My questions are: > * Do you know if there is eye-tracking software? > * Does head-tracking is really efficient? > * Do you know if there are other useful application? > * Do you know how to use the numeric keyboard to move the mouse on Mate? > * Is there a mailing list or forum where there are people with motor disability using GNU/Linux? > > Best regards. > -- > Alex ARNAUD > Visual-Impairment Project Manager > Hypra - "Humanizing technology" > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From cesar at crea-si.com Mon Mar 19 19:46:56 2018 From: cesar at crea-si.com (Cesar Mauri) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 20:46:56 +0100 Subject: Accessibility for person with a motor disability In-Reply-To: <222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> References: <222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> Message-ID: <7b91306c-7e0d-9ecd-0ff5-5d9cec1798b3@crea-si.com> > * Does head-tracking is really efficient? (Disclaimer: I'm the author of eViacam and EVA Facial Mouse) If by efficiency you mean achieving the same throughput than a regular mouse, then the answer is no. I'm not aware about any head tracker solution able reach the same low difficulty level (in terms of the Fitt's law) and interaction speed as the mouse. In other words, interacting with the computer using a head tracker is slower than using a mouse. However, if you mean whether is there a FOSS head tracker solution available for GNU/Linux as efficient as similar products, then I would say yes. I know about some eViacam users that say that it is almost as accurate as the best hardware based commercial solutions. This, of course, is opinionable and user experience depend on many factors such as practice and working conditions (quality of the camera, lighting, etc.). > * Do you know if there are other useful application? There was a website that collected many open source assistive technology software (not only for GNU/Linux). The site is now gone but could be still consulted here: https://web.archive.org/web/20160412220413/http://www.oatsoft.org:80/Software/listing/Repository Best Cesar El 19/03/18 a las 17:52, Alex ARNAUD escribió: > Hello all, > > To help people with motor disability, I'm trying to search what software and technologies exist on GNU/Linux. > > Sorry for the cross-list post but I don't know where to ask for help. > > I've already found the following software: > * dasher: for writing text > * eviacam: a head tracking software > * mousetrap: another head tracking software > * onboard: a configurable on-screen keyboard > > My questions are: > * Do you know if there is eye-tracking software? > * Does head-tracking is really efficient? > * Do you know if there are other useful application? > * Do you know how to use the numeric keyboard to move the mouse on Mate? > * Is there a mailing list or forum where there are people with motor disability using GNU/Linux? > > Best regards. From gErvin at cableone.net Tue Mar 20 00:20:08 2018 From: gErvin at cableone.net (Glenn At Home) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 19:20:08 -0500 Subject: VmWare problem Message-ID: Hi, Today I installed VmWare on a Windows 7 machine with 8GB of RAM. I created a machine that boots Ubuntu 16.4.3 from the ISO. It did not take long, and I heard the bongo sound, like as in the log-in window. The VmWare required me to create a user name and password. I made up something that satisfied the required fields and continued to the hear the aforementioned bongo sound. So I tried putting in my newly created user name and password, and I could not seemingly boot to the desktop. I tried control + S, and I tried alt + F2 and entering orca, and still seemingly nothing. I gave the machine 4GB RAM of the 8GB. Maybe I did not wait long enough for it to install? When that did not work, I deleted that one, and created another, this time giving it the user name and password both of "ubuntu". Still, nothing. Given that the bongo sound happened, isn't it just about installed at that point? Thanks for any assistance. Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nick at microlitesoftware.co.uk Tue Mar 20 08:16:48 2018 From: nick at microlitesoftware.co.uk (Nick Wood) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 08:16:48 +0000 Subject: VmWare problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <595439da-e7cc-6664-a5d3-f8e80de2b2c0@microlitesoftware.co.uk> Hi Glenn, Are you sure that Ubuntu has the keyboard focus? If not, your keystrokes will not go through to the guest operating system. I use VMWare on linux, and by default VMWare does not grab keyboard focus unless you either put the VM into full screen or press Ctrl+G (or click with the mouse somewhere inside the guest operating system's window) So when you hear the bongos, try Ctrl+G, and then try the Orca key combination which is Alt+Super+S. Orca should start speaking. Regards, Nick On 20/03/18 00:20, Glenn At Home wrote: > Hi, > Today I installed VmWare on a Windows 7 machine with 8GB of RAM. > I created a machine that boots Ubuntu 16.4.3 from the ISO. > It did not take long, and I heard the bongo sound, like as in the log-in > window. > The VmWare required me to create a user name and password. > I made up something that satisfied the required fields and continued to > the hear the aforementioned bongo sound. > So I tried putting in my newly created user name and password, and I > could not seemingly boot to the desktop. > I tried control + S, and I tried alt + F2 and entering orca, and still > seemingly nothing. > I gave the machine 4GB RAM of the 8GB. > Maybe I did not wait long enough for it to install? > When that did not work, I deleted that one, and created another, this > time giving it the user name and password both of "ubuntu". > Still, nothing. > Given that the bongo sound happened, isn't it just about installed at > that point? > Thanks for any assistance. > Glenn > > From alexarnaud at hypra.fr Tue Mar 20 09:27:30 2018 From: alexarnaud at hypra.fr (Alex ARNAUD) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 10:27:30 +0100 Subject: Accessibility for person with a motor disability In-Reply-To: References: <28093_1521478371_0P5U00E4TK81W730_222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> Message-ID: Le 19/03/2018 à 18:03, Gregg Vanderheiden GPII a écrit : > have you tried the Unified Listing? http://ul.gpii.net part of http://GPII.net I've discovered the Unified Listing with your message. It's really interesting. Thanks for the tips. Best regards, Alex. From alexarnaud at hypra.fr Tue Mar 20 09:35:23 2018 From: alexarnaud at hypra.fr (Alex ARNAUD) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 10:35:23 +0100 Subject: Accessibility for person with a motor disability In-Reply-To: <7b91306c-7e0d-9ecd-0ff5-5d9cec1798b3@crea-si.com> References: <222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> <7b91306c-7e0d-9ecd-0ff5-5d9cec1798b3@crea-si.com> Message-ID: Le 19/03/2018 à 20:46, Cesar Mauri a écrit : >> * Does head-tracking is really efficient? > > (Disclaimer: I'm the author of eViacam and EVA Facial Mouse) Are you aware of differences between eviacam and GNOME mousetrap? > However, if you mean whether is there a FOSS head tracker solution > available for GNU/Linux as efficient as similar products, then I would > say yes. It's exactly what I expect indeed. What is as you know the most efficient way to write text with a head-tracking software? >> * Do you know if there are other useful application? > > There was a website that collected many open source assistive technology > software (not only for GNU/Linux). The site is now gone but could be > still consulted here: Thanks you for the link. Best regards, Alex. From gErvin at cableone.net Tue Mar 20 13:46:21 2018 From: gErvin at cableone.net (Glenn At Home) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 08:46:21 -0500 Subject: VmWare problem Message-ID: <3CFFBF146EAB4680832942CEBC8CEF1D@NUCPPYH> Hi Nick, I did the control + G, and I also did the alt + control and it goes back to Windows control. After control G, all keystrokes are silent, as they should be before speech. I don't know about full screen mode. One would think too, if the alt + F2 works, or any edit field, I should hear the thunk on backspace, but I don't hear that either. Glenn From: Nick Wood To: ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: VmWare problem Message-ID: <595439da-e7cc-6664-a5d3-f8e80de2b2c0 at microlitesoftware.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Hi Glenn, Are you sure that Ubuntu has the keyboard focus? If not, your keystrokes will not go through to the guest operating system. I use VMWare on linux, and by default VMWare does not grab keyboard focus unless you either put the VM into full screen or press Ctrl+G (or click with the mouse somewhere inside the guest operating system's window) So when you hear the bongos, try Ctrl+G, and then try the Orca key combination which is Alt+Super+S. Orca should start speaking. Regards, Nick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexarnaud at hypra.fr Tue Mar 20 16:33:25 2018 From: alexarnaud at hypra.fr (Alex ARNAUD) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 17:33:25 +0100 Subject: Accessibility for person with a motor disability In-Reply-To: References: <222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> <7b91306c-7e0d-9ecd-0ff5-5d9cec1798b3@crea-si.com> Message-ID: <5646dc16-7da0-9c73-7a4f-625aaefb60a5@hypra.fr> Hello Thibaut, Le 20/03/2018 à 11:14, Thibaut Paumard a écrit : > Le 20/03/2018 à 10:35, Alex ARNAUD a écrit : >> What is as you know the most efficient way to write text with a >> head-tracking software? > > Dear Alex, > > Dasher comes to mind: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasher_(software) I've tested it, looks good to me. Is Dasher should be configured to replace the keyboard when I open a text edition field? I've found how to write text but it's only from the dasher window so imagine if I would like to enter text on Firefox, how I can do that? Maybe there is a documentation I could look on? (I've already read some documentation I've found on the dasher website). Best regards, Alex. From sthibault at debian.org Tue Mar 20 16:36:20 2018 From: sthibault at debian.org (Samuel Thibault) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 17:36:20 +0100 Subject: Accessibility for person with a motor disability In-Reply-To: References: <222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> <7b91306c-7e0d-9ecd-0ff5-5d9cec1798b3@crea-si.com> Message-ID: <20180320163620.pmmx6fxgphkacmpw@var.youpi.perso.aquilenet.fr> Mats L, on mar. 20 mars 2018 16:22:25 +0100, wrote: > Unfortunately the GNU/Linux environments are badly missing a full-featured > tailorable on-screen keyboard alternative (including switch input etc.) > following up on the [4]GOK project since it was discontinued. Is onboard not the continuation of GOK? Samuel From sthibault at debian.org Tue Mar 20 16:37:14 2018 From: sthibault at debian.org (Samuel Thibault) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 17:37:14 +0100 Subject: Accessibility for person with a motor disability In-Reply-To: <5646dc16-7da0-9c73-7a4f-625aaefb60a5@hypra.fr> References: <222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> <7b91306c-7e0d-9ecd-0ff5-5d9cec1798b3@crea-si.com> <5646dc16-7da0-9c73-7a4f-625aaefb60a5@hypra.fr> Message-ID: <20180320163714.2rhqysmn3od2cq62@var.youpi.perso.aquilenet.fr> Alex ARNAUD, on mar. 20 mars 2018 17:33:25 +0100, wrote: > Is Dasher should be configured to replace the keyboard when I open a text > edition field? IIRC that has never been implemented. It would be a matter of making it e.g. an ibus input method or such. Samuel From m.lundalv at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 15:22:25 2018 From: m.lundalv at gmail.com (Mats L) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 16:22:25 +0100 Subject: Accessibility for person with a motor disability In-Reply-To: References: <222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> <7b91306c-7e0d-9ecd-0ff5-5d9cec1798b3@crea-si.com> Message-ID: Hi Alex and all, I can confirm Cesar's description of the functionality of eViacam as a very objective and accurate one (despite - or thanks to - his direct involvement ;-) I have been doing som content management for OATSoft for several years, but unfortunately the maintenance broke down a couple of years ago because of server hosting problems etc outside of my control. In addition to Gregg's link to the Unified Listing (which is a very comprehensive database merging data from many sources, but also a bit messy and not specific for free software), there is also another new attempt to replace the function of OATSoft in the OpenAssistive initiative. This latter is not yet very comprehensive as it is new and depends on user input. I suggest that we all check out these resources and try to help adding missing bits and pieces and keeping them up-to-date for free software solutions. Regarding access alternative solutions for GNU/Linux there is also the Caribou on-screen keyboard: https://wiki.gnome.org/action/show/Projects/Caribou. This is a rather basic on-screen keyboard tool. It has been developing slowly, but I have noticed some recent activity via the bug tracker. Unfortunately the GNU/Linux environments are badly missing a full-featured tailorable on-screen keyboard alternative (including switch input etc.) following up on the GOK project since it was discontinued. Cheers, Mats Mats Lundälv 2018-03-20 10:35 GMT+01:00 Alex ARNAUD : > Le 19/03/2018 à 20:46, Cesar Mauri a écrit : > >> * Does head-tracking is really efficient? >>> >> >> (Disclaimer: I'm the author of eViacam and EVA Facial Mouse) >> > > Are you aware of differences between eviacam and GNOME mousetrap? > > However, if you mean whether is there a FOSS head tracker solution >> available for GNU/Linux as efficient as similar products, then I would say >> yes. >> > > It's exactly what I expect indeed. What is as you know the most efficient > way to write text with a head-tracking software? > > * Do you know if there are other useful application? >>> >> >> There was a website that collected many open source assistive technology >> software (not only for GNU/Linux). The site is now gone but could be still >> consulted here: >> > > Thanks you for the link. > > Best regards, > Alex. > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > Virusfritt. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From m.lundalv at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 17:31:03 2018 From: m.lundalv at gmail.com (Mats L) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 18:31:03 +0100 Subject: Accessibility for person with a motor disability In-Reply-To: <20180320163620.pmmx6fxgphkacmpw@var.youpi.perso.aquilenet.fr> References: <222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> <7b91306c-7e0d-9ecd-0ff5-5d9cec1798b3@crea-si.com> <20180320163620.pmmx6fxgphkacmpw@var.youpi.perso.aquilenet.fr> Message-ID: > Is onboard not the continuation of GOK? > > Samuel > Both Onboard and Caribou were intended as replacements of GOK, but are not really. GOK was an ambitious effort to provide tailorable access for individuals with major motor difficulties, including need for single and double switch input. But it was not a very suitable option for a wider group of users with a need for a more basic on-screen keyboard for use with direct point and click or touch selection. Onboard and Caribou are more of that later kind, but lack features for the previous kind of user needs. So there we are, lacking an on-screen text input, communication and computer control tool covering the full range of needs reasonably well, or a couple of alternatives covering the full range of needs (including users who are not fluent readers and writers). Dasher is indeed a very interesting text generation tool for some users, but again, not for all. I haven't properly tested Dasher in GNU/Linux environments. On Windows there is a setting in Dasher where you select whether text shall be sent to Dasher's own text field (with options to copy and paste it into a target app), or whether it shall be sent directly to the current active target app. I a not clear about if and/or to what degree this is supported on various Linux distributions. Anybody ? / Mats Virusfritt. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thibaut at debian.org Tue Mar 20 10:14:26 2018 From: thibaut at debian.org (Thibaut Paumard) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 11:14:26 +0100 Subject: Accessibility for person with a motor disability In-Reply-To: References: <222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> <7b91306c-7e0d-9ecd-0ff5-5d9cec1798b3@crea-si.com> Message-ID: Le 20/03/2018 à 10:35, Alex ARNAUD a écrit : > What is as you know the most > efficient way to write text with a head-tracking software? Dear Alex, Dasher comes to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasher_(software) Kind regards, Thibaut. From alexarnaud at hypra.fr Wed Mar 21 09:45:21 2018 From: alexarnaud at hypra.fr (Alex ARNAUD) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 10:45:21 +0100 Subject: Accessibility for person with a motor disability In-Reply-To: References: <222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> <7b91306c-7e0d-9ecd-0ff5-5d9cec1798b3@crea-si.com> <20180320163620.pmmx6fxgphkacmpw@var.youpi.perso.aquilenet.fr> Message-ID: <8c3ca416-84e0-196e-9a9f-cb14087d4577@hypra.fr> Le 20/03/2018 à 18:31, Mats L a écrit : > Both Onboard and Caribou were intended as replacements of GOK, but are > not really. > GOK was an ambitious effort to provide tailorable access for individuals > with major motor difficulties, including need for single and double > switch input. But it was not a very suitable option for a wider group of > users with a need for a more basic on-screen keyboard for use with > direct point and click or touch selection. Do you have reported such bugs against onboard or Caribou? Do you have asked upstream to make GOK comes back if it has a different purpose? Best regards, Alex. From esj at eggo.org Wed Mar 21 14:27:43 2018 From: esj at eggo.org (Eric Johansson) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 10:27:43 -0400 Subject: Accessibility for person with a motor disability In-Reply-To: References: <222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> <7b91306c-7e0d-9ecd-0ff5-5d9cec1798b3@crea-si.com> Message-ID: <88f429db-1181-01c9-9638-ce65f002e4ff@eggo.org> On 3/20/2018 5:35 AM, Alex ARNAUD wrote: > > What is as you know the most efficient way to write text with a > head-tracking software? I'm frustrated by this kind of question because frequently, this is the wrong question. you should be asking what is the appropriate interface to enable the person with a disability to write, and more importantly, edit text.  much of this thread has been proposing answers based on what's available, not what the person needs. I can't use keyboards much because of a repetitive stress injury. I would say that the most efficient way to write text with a head tracking software is to not even try at all. It's the wrong tool. For many kinds of mobility-based disabilities (RSI, arthritis, amputation etc.) speech recognition would be a better tool. your question touches a hot spot for me because I've been living with a disability for about 25 years now. I've also seen, for the same 25 years people without disabilities proposing the same solutions over and over again, either not able to or unwilling to hear that those solutions are , at best crap, at worst humiliating. As a person with a disability, I will tell you anytime you try to emulate/simulate a mouse and keyboard with tools like on-screen keyboards, I tracking etc.,  you are solving the wrong problem. the right problem (my opinion) is digging into applications and revealing internal information and providing access to internal controls so that you can build an interface that matches the person's disability. It's also very important to build the interface it lets the person automate or extend that interface without counting on anybody else to create that extension. For example, my hands don't work right so if I'm going to extend my speech recognition interface, I need to do it with speech recognition. So I would go back to your disabled person and really look at what they need. If they have enough physical ability enabling them to use speech recognition, then that will make them more independent than head trackers or on-screen keyboards would ever do. --- eric From alexarnaud at hypra.fr Wed Mar 21 15:30:41 2018 From: alexarnaud at hypra.fr (Alex ARNAUD) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 16:30:41 +0100 Subject: Accessibility for person with a motor disability In-Reply-To: <88f429db-1181-01c9-9638-ce65f002e4ff@eggo.org> References: <222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> <7b91306c-7e0d-9ecd-0ff5-5d9cec1798b3@crea-si.com> <88f429db-1181-01c9-9638-ce65f002e4ff@eggo.org> Message-ID: <7ed9a38f-7c4d-bf34-2e7f-69a2fc024bc5@hypra.fr> Le 21/03/2018 à 15:27, Eric Johansson a écrit : > On 3/20/2018 5:35 AM, Alex ARNAUD wrote: >> >> What is as you know the most efficient way to write text with a >> head-tracking software? > I'm frustrated by this kind of question because frequently, this is the > wrong question. you should be asking what is the appropriate interface > to enable the person with a disability to write, and more importantly, > edit text.  much of this thread has been proposing answers based on > what's available, not what the person needs. I understand what you mean. I just don't know what people with motor disability need. I'm trying to understand what it is available and I'll check with an association what the users use in practice. I'm in the first step on a long way. > I can't use keyboards much because of a repetitive stress injury. I > would say that the most efficient way to write text with a head tracking > software is to not even try at all. It's the wrong tool. For many kinds > of mobility-based disabilities (RSI, arthritis, amputation etc.) speech > recognition would be a better tool. Which tool are you using on your GNU/Linux distribution for doing speech recognition ? Best regards, Alex. From esj at eggo.org Wed Mar 21 16:35:41 2018 From: esj at eggo.org (Eric Johansson) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 12:35:41 -0400 Subject: Accessibility for person with a motor disability In-Reply-To: <7ed9a38f-7c4d-bf34-2e7f-69a2fc024bc5@hypra.fr> References: <222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> <7b91306c-7e0d-9ecd-0ff5-5d9cec1798b3@crea-si.com> <88f429db-1181-01c9-9638-ce65f002e4ff@eggo.org> <7ed9a38f-7c4d-bf34-2e7f-69a2fc024bc5@hypra.fr> Message-ID: <7f3bcb06-fbe4-fc02-aa6b-d05f3bb05cf3@eggo.org> On 3/21/2018 11:30 AM, Alex ARNAUD wrote: > Le 21/03/2018 à 15:27, Eric Johansson a écrit : >> On 3/20/2018 5:35 AM, Alex ARNAUD wrote: >>> >>> What is as you know the most efficient way to write text with a >>> head-tracking software? >> I'm frustrated by this kind of question because frequently, this is the >> wrong question. you should be asking what is the appropriate interface >> to enable the person with a disability to write, and more importantly, >> edit text.  much of this thread has been proposing answers based on >> what's available, not what the person needs. > > I understand what you mean. I just don't know what people with motor > disability need. I'm trying to understand what it is available and > I'll check with an association what the users use in practice. I'm in > the first step on a long way. We need more than just an accessibility tool, we need a different way of accessing functionality and data embedded in applications. I've been trying for years to figure out how to write code by speech and here's the current state of thinking. I did this is a proposal to github for talk it github universe. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M14DEoC2uTWtQv1HtRyUwK5NKT6Wb0vutu98F9Yl1b0/edit?usp=sharing It just occurred to me that another example of building your own interface for the moment is what I'm doing right now. I'm extracting bank statements to give to my accountant for tax prep. When you download a statement, my bank labels every statement PDF.pdf. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. So I built a grammar that I can say "statement in June" and it creates a file name of "1234-2018-06.pdf". I still have to, display in PDF and then click the download button before I can get to the point where I need to enter a filename but being able to generate filenames by speech makes it much easier. > >> I can't use keyboards much because of a repetitive stress injury. I >> would say that the most efficient way to write text with a head tracking >> software is to not even try at all. It's the wrong tool. For many kinds >> of mobility-based disabilities (RSI, arthritis, amputation etc.) speech >> recognition would be a better tool. > > Which tool are you using on your GNU/Linux distribution for doing > speech recognition ? I'm not using a GNU/Linux distribution because well people of promised speech recognition on Linux for as long as I've been disabled and it just hasn't happened. what I use is Windows with NaturallySpeaking and what ever hacks I can get to drive free software. I'm missing tons of functionality that's present in NaturallySpeaking plus word (i.e. Select-and-Say and easy misrecognition correction) but I do what I can. I think it's safe to assume that we will not see speech recognition on linux in the near future. there are at least a half a dozen projects I can name off the top of my head that were going to provide speech recognition on Linux "any day now". If you going to use speech recognition today, the recognition environment must be available now.  The question then becomes what can we do if we put speech recognition "in a separate machine" like a VM or an android phone. the idea is to isolate the nonfree components so that a disabled person can make a living, participate online etc. using a mostly free environment. I propose this because the assumption that every machine should be equipped with  the accessibility tools the user needs raises the cost of accessibility and limits the disabled user to just one machine that has been customized for them. If on the other hand, if we put the accessibility interface in a separate box like a smart phone and provide a gateway to drive applications then many more machines could be made accessible at very low overhead. remember what I said about solving the disabled person's needs? As I said to one free software advocate, take care of the needs of the disabled person to make them as independent as possible, to earn a living, to live a life first. Advocate free software second if it fits their needs. I know this is not a popular attitude in some circles but, quite frankly if I had to wait for speech recognition from the free software community, I would be living on disability, wasting my life because I wouldn't be able to work, I wouldn't be able to go to school, and I just can't tell you how many things you lose when your hands don't work right. From cesar at crea-si.com Wed Mar 21 08:17:21 2018 From: cesar at crea-si.com (Cesar Mauri) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 09:17:21 +0100 Subject: Accessibility for person with a motor disability In-Reply-To: References: <222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> <7b91306c-7e0d-9ecd-0ff5-5d9cec1798b3@crea-si.com> Message-ID: <829fa467-2a3b-d6bc-9309-b0f2523e0332@crea-si.com> El 20/03/18 a las 10:35, Alex ARNAUD escribió: > > Are you aware of differences between eviacam and GNOME mousetrap? I didn't try recent versions, thus I cannot answer > >  What is as you know the most efficient way to write text with a head-tracking software? As Thibaut suggested, I think the most efficient writing system for head-tracking is dasher. However, all people I've seen using a head-tracker combined it with some sort of on-screen keyboard. Best Cesar From m.lundalv at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 09:27:02 2018 From: m.lundalv at gmail.com (Mats L) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 10:27:02 +0100 Subject: Accessibility for person with a motor disability In-Reply-To: <829fa467-2a3b-d6bc-9309-b0f2523e0332@crea-si.com> References: <222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> <7b91306c-7e0d-9ecd-0ff5-5d9cec1798b3@crea-si.com> <829fa467-2a3b-d6bc-9309-b0f2523e0332@crea-si.com> Message-ID: That goes for switch users too: Dasher may be very efficient for text entry (if you are a relatively fluent reader and can learn to cope with the navigation mode), but you will need an appropriate OSK for editing and for the handling of your system in general. Mats 2018-03-21 9:17 GMT+01:00 Cesar Mauri : > > El 20/03/18 a las 10:35, Alex ARNAUD escribió: > >> >> Are you aware of differences between eviacam and GNOME mousetrap? >> > > I didn't try recent versions, thus I cannot answer > > > >> What is as you know the most efficient way to write text with a >> head-tracking software? >> > > > As Thibaut suggested, I think the most efficient writing system for > head-tracking is dasher. However, all people I've seen using a head-tracker > combined it with some sort of on-screen keyboard. > > > Best > Cesar > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > Virusfritt. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thibaut at debian.org Wed Mar 21 09:30:35 2018 From: thibaut at debian.org (Thibaut Paumard) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 10:30:35 +0100 Subject: Accessibility for person with a motor disability In-Reply-To: <5646dc16-7da0-9c73-7a4f-625aaefb60a5@hypra.fr> References: <222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> <7b91306c-7e0d-9ecd-0ff5-5d9cec1798b3@crea-si.com> <5646dc16-7da0-9c73-7a4f-625aaefb60a5@hypra.fr> Message-ID: <57d743b4-d242-d83e-14a1-6916c63f160f@debian.org> Le 20/03/2018 à 17:33, Alex ARNAUD a écrit : > Hello Thibaut, > > Le 20/03/2018 à 11:14, Thibaut Paumard a écrit : >> Le 20/03/2018 à 10:35, Alex ARNAUD a écrit : >>> What is as you know the most efficient way to write text with a >>> head-tracking software? >> >> Dasher comes to mind: >> > > I've tested it, looks good to me. > Is Dasher should be configured to replace the keyboard when I open a > text edition field? I've found how to write text but it's only from the > dasher window so imagine if I would like to enter text on Firefox, how I > can do that? Maybe there is a documentation I could look on? (I've > already read some documentation I've found on the dasher website). Dear Alex, Dasher has a "direct mode" that you can activate from le File menu. In this mode, you can click in a text input widget in any application and come back to dasher window to type text that will directly appear in this widget. I have typed part of this e-mail this way in thunderbird using dasher. I don't use dasher on a daily basis myself, so I can't judge whether it's reliable or practical for daily use. For sure it does not play nice with mouse or sloppy focus. Also, due to how it is implemented, direct mode works only under X11, not in Wayland: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=778151 So by default direct mode works in Debian Stretch (current stable), but not in Buster (current unstable). Kind regards, Thibaut. From esj at eggo.org Wed Mar 21 19:32:44 2018 From: esj at eggo.org (Eric Johansson) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 15:32:44 -0400 Subject: Accessibility for person with a motor disability In-Reply-To: References: <222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> <7b91306c-7e0d-9ecd-0ff5-5d9cec1798b3@crea-si.com> <88f429db-1181-01c9-9638-ce65f002e4ff@eggo.org> <7ed9a38f-7c4d-bf34-2e7f-69a2fc024bc5@hypra.fr> <7f3bcb06-fbe4-fc02-aa6b-d05f3bb05cf3@eggo.org> Message-ID: <1dfac30b-5ac9-f9fd-fb0d-763cbc8e75d6@eggo.org> On 3/21/2018 3:03 PM, Mats L wrote: > Eric, > > It's always very good to have a person speaking on behalf of himself > or herself as a user representing an actual need. There is a lack of > this for people with mobility based access problems in these forums > for free software, compared to the areas of low or no vision. Part of > the problem is the really wide and diverse range of needs regarding > physical access - disabilities as well as abilities. (Regarding > cognitive disabilities and needs there is a general lack of people at > all able and interested in speaking and doing things on behalf of > those needs in the GNU/Linux world.) So thanks for stepping in! I'll > be looking at your ideas with great interest. I also think part of the challenge with providing mobility related accessibility features is that those of us who are technical enough to understand what to do no longer have hands to make it happen so we count on people like you to work with us building prototype features. I did that with togglename when I had enough money to pay somebody to write code for me. > >  But remember that speech input is a dead end for a large part of > users with mobility based access problems, those who have impaired or > no speech. Yes. Speech recognition is useful only if the person has a functioning vocal apparatus. I'm reminded of this every time I get a cold. :-) > > Eye-gaze input is another hot area where it seems unrealistic to > expect any decently competitive and user-friendly solutions in the > free software domain in any near future. > > This said, I think it's very good to have Alex ask these questions > about what's available. A decent awareness about the state of the art > is always a necessary starting point for some improvement. And people > have difficulties even finding their way to existing solutions. Things > like decent head-tracking, on-screen keyboards (OSK) etc are really > important to have available, and are life savers for some users, even > though there is a huge potential of improvements. This is a place where a foundation could really help. Like you point out, all the accessibility features we have are really important and can mean the difference between watching the clock tick for the rest your life and being able to participate in society at some level. I wish there were some foundation money to help us build new interfaces, not accessibility tools but different interfaces for using tools like speech recognition, I tracking, head tracking etc. to operate in larger chunks and not emulating the fine-grained motions of a mouse or keyboard. > One thing that makes me frustrated is the sustained tendency of > unnecessary fragmentation and lack of collaboration even in this area > of handling basic accessibility needs. Why don't for example the > people involved in maintaining and developing Caribou and Onboard team > up and unite on one common OSK with a wider range of functionality and > options - for all GNU/Linux distros and flavours, and with support > from them? > > Dasher is really an example of > the kind of needs based, unorthodox and innovative solutions for text > input that you were asking for. Have you tried it? As a second best, > compared to excellent speech recognition, I think it could be relevant > for you? But there I guess we now also have a problem with continued > maintenance since David MacKay > so unfortunately > passed away. > > Maintaining decent accessibility for all in an ever changing ICT > universe is not an easy task, and particularly not on the free > software platforms it seems, so far ... You've hit on a really big issue. Too much fragmentation, not enough concentrated support to solve the problem and use it everywhere. dasher doesn't work for me because I can't move the mouse fast enough or accurately enough to pick off letters and I'm terrible at spelling. By the way, that's a serious side effect of using speech recognition. Your ability to spell degrades... For a while, I was going to the local A11y meet up and when I described my issues, I got back a bunch of blank looks. These people had no idea how to deal with accessibility needs like mine. part of the challenge of using speech recognition is not just the speech recognition and the application modifications but it's that using speech recognition in open office is kind of counterproductive to other people's work. It's about as easy to relax and speak as it would be to try to take a pee in a bucket in an open office. So if you want, I'll be glad to keep chiming in and be as constructive as possible. If someone feels like trying to prototype fitting the Dragon browser extensions into something like electron, I'd be glad to work with them. --- eric -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From m.lundalv at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 19:03:04 2018 From: m.lundalv at gmail.com (Mats L) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 20:03:04 +0100 Subject: Accessibility for person with a motor disability In-Reply-To: <7f3bcb06-fbe4-fc02-aa6b-d05f3bb05cf3@eggo.org> References: <222ffe46-05d3-7b2d-c986-899c306ccdfd@hypra.fr> <7b91306c-7e0d-9ecd-0ff5-5d9cec1798b3@crea-si.com> <88f429db-1181-01c9-9638-ce65f002e4ff@eggo.org> <7ed9a38f-7c4d-bf34-2e7f-69a2fc024bc5@hypra.fr> <7f3bcb06-fbe4-fc02-aa6b-d05f3bb05cf3@eggo.org> Message-ID: Eric, It's always very good to have a person speaking on behalf of himself or herself as a user representing an actual need. There is a lack of this for people with mobility based access problems in these forums for free software, compared to the areas of low or no vision. Part of the problem is the really wide and diverse range of needs regarding physical access - disabilities as well as abilities. (Regarding cognitive disabilities and needs there is a general lack of people at all able and interested in speaking and doing things on behalf of those needs in the GNU/Linux world.) So thanks for stepping in! I'll be looking at your ideas with great interest. I can agree with some of what you're saying, but not with all of it. I can definitely in great parts understand and share your frustration and dissatisfaction about the situation. I agree with and can confirm your picture of the situation regarding speech recognition in the GNU/Linux based environments. We don't even have decent text-to-speech solutions for wider user needs (even in English and major languages, far less in smaller languages - see for example https://opensource.com/life/15/8/interview-ken-starks-texas-linux-fest). But remember that speech input is a dead end for a large part of users with mobility based access problems, those who have impaired or no speech. Eye-gaze input is another hot area where it seems unrealistic to expect any decently competitive and user-friendly solutions in the free software domain in any near future. This said, I think it's very good to have Alex ask these questions about what's available. A decent awareness about the state of the art is always a necessary starting point for some improvement. And people have difficulties even finding their way to existing solutions. Things like decent head-tracking, on-screen keyboards (OSK) etc are really important to have available, and are life savers for some users, even though there is a huge potential of improvements. One thing that makes me frustrated is the sustained tendency of unnecessary fragmentation and lack of collaboration even in this area of handling basic accessibility needs. Why don't for example the people involved in maintaining and developing Caribou and Onboard team up and unite on one common OSK with a wider range of functionality and options - for all GNU/Linux distros and flavours, and with support from them? Dasher is really an example of the kind of needs based, unorthodox and innovative solutions for text input that you were asking for. Have you tried it? As a second best, compared to excellent speech recognition, I think it could be relevant for you? But there I guess we now also have a problem with continued maintenance since David MacKay so unfortunately passed away. Maintaining decent accessibility for all in an ever changing ICT universe is not an easy task, and particularly not on the free software platforms it seems, so far ... Mats Mats Lundälv 2018-03-21 17:35 GMT+01:00 Eric Johansson : > > > On 3/21/2018 11:30 AM, Alex ARNAUD wrote: > > Le 21/03/2018 à 15:27, Eric Johansson a écrit : > >> On 3/20/2018 5:35 AM, Alex ARNAUD wrote: > >>> > >>> What is as you know the most efficient way to write text with a > >>> head-tracking software? > >> I'm frustrated by this kind of question because frequently, this is the > >> wrong question. you should be asking what is the appropriate interface > >> to enable the person with a disability to write, and more importantly, > >> edit text. much of this thread has been proposing answers based on > >> what's available, not what the person needs. > > > > I understand what you mean. I just don't know what people with motor > > disability need. I'm trying to understand what it is available and > > I'll check with an association what the users use in practice. I'm in > > the first step on a long way. > We need more than just an accessibility tool, we need a different way of > accessing functionality and data embedded in applications. I've been > trying for years to figure out how to write code by speech and here's > the current state of thinking. I did this is a proposal to github for > talk it github universe. > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M14DEoC2uTWtQv1HtRyUwK5NKT6Wb > 0vutu98F9Yl1b0/edit?usp=sharing > > It just occurred to me that another example of building your own > interface for the moment is what I'm doing right now. I'm extracting > bank statements to give to my accountant for tax prep. When you download > a statement, my bank labels every statement PDF.pdf. Yeah, I was > thinking the same thing. So I built a grammar that I can say "statement > in June" and it creates a file name of "1234-2018-06.pdf". I still have > to, display in PDF and then click the download button before I can get > to the point where I need to enter a filename but being able to generate > filenames by speech makes it much easier. > > > > >> I can't use keyboards much because of a repetitive stress injury. I > >> would say that the most efficient way to write text with a head tracking > >> software is to not even try at all. It's the wrong tool. For many kinds > >> of mobility-based disabilities (RSI, arthritis, amputation etc.) speech > >> recognition would be a better tool. > > > > Which tool are you using on your GNU/Linux distribution for doing > > speech recognition ? > > I'm not using a GNU/Linux distribution because well people of promised > speech recognition on Linux for as long as I've been disabled and it > just hasn't happened. what I use is Windows with NaturallySpeaking and > what ever hacks I can get to drive free software. I'm missing tons of > functionality that's present in NaturallySpeaking plus word (i.e. > Select-and-Say and easy misrecognition correction) but I do what I can. > > I think it's safe to assume that we will not see speech recognition on > linux in the near future. there are at least a half a dozen projects I > can name off the top of my head that were going to provide speech > recognition on Linux "any day now". If you going to use speech > recognition today, the recognition environment must be available now. > > The question then becomes what can we do if we put speech recognition > "in a separate machine" like a VM or an android phone. the idea is to > isolate the nonfree components so that a disabled person can make a > living, participate online etc. using a mostly free environment. I > propose this because the assumption that every machine should be > equipped with the accessibility tools the user needs raises the cost of > accessibility and limits the disabled user to just one machine that has > been customized for them. If on the other hand, if we put the > accessibility interface in a separate box like a smart phone and provide > a gateway to drive applications then many more machines could be made > accessible at very low overhead. > > remember what I said about solving the disabled person's needs? As I > said to one free software advocate, take care of the needs of the > disabled person to make them as independent as possible, to earn a > living, to live a life first. Advocate free software second if it fits > their needs. I know this is not a popular attitude in some circles but, > quite frankly if I had to wait for speech recognition from the free > software community, I would be living on disability, wasting my life > because I wouldn't be able to work, I wouldn't be able to go to school, > and I just can't tell you how many things you lose when your hands don't > work right. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list at gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > Virusfritt. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: