From jim_kielman at shaw.ca  Wed Sep  1 00:09:55 2010
From: jim_kielman at shaw.ca (Jim Kielman)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:09:55 -0700
Subject: Firestarter (Chris Jones)
In-Reply-To: <1283268061.13048.2.camel@blue>
References: <AANLkTimN4oFby-B9ieEmJG7ebBceX6kVjJyEApQKP9wE@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100830212051.GA3990@cox.net> <1283204988.2554.1.camel@falcon>
	<201008301758.39486.ubuntu@kitterman.com>
	<1283266757.19616.1.camel@falcon> <1283268061.13048.2.camel@blue>
Message-ID: <4C7D99D3.6040604@shaw.ca>

On 10-08-31 08:21 AM, Krzysztof Klimonda wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-08-31 at 07:59 -0700, George Farris wrote:
>>
>> Gufw is in no way suitable for a new user.  They have no idea what
>> iptables are or rules for that matter.
>>
>> George
>
> What is the actual use case for a simple and graphical firewall? Why do
> people who have no idea what iptables or rules are should have to use
> firewall at all?
>
> Cheers,
>   KK
>

The default rules when you use:

sudo ufw enable

are more then adequate for the average user that is running any 
services. To answer your questions as to why they have to use a 
firewall, they don't, it's just something they did when they ran 
Windows, and they can't believe they can be safe on the internet without 
one. Personally I don't run one at home, and only enable the firewall 
when I'm out with my netbook.

Jim



From holtzm at cox.net  Wed Sep  1 00:42:28 2010
From: holtzm at cox.net (Robert Holtzman)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:42:28 -0700
Subject: Firestarter (Chris Jones)
In-Reply-To: <4C7D99D3.6040604@shaw.ca>
References: <AANLkTimN4oFby-B9ieEmJG7ebBceX6kVjJyEApQKP9wE@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100830212051.GA3990@cox.net> <1283204988.2554.1.camel@falcon>
	<201008301758.39486.ubuntu@kitterman.com>
	<1283266757.19616.1.camel@falcon> <1283268061.13048.2.camel@blue>
	<4C7D99D3.6040604@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <20100901004228.GA18465@cox.net>

On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 05:09:55PM -0700, Jim Kielman wrote:
> 
> are more then adequate for the average user that is running any 
> services. To answer your questions as to why they have to use a 
> firewall, they don't, it's just something they did when they ran 
> Windows, and they can't believe they can be safe on the internet without 
> one. Personally I don't run one at home, and only enable the firewall 
> when I'm out with my netbook.

When I'm not hooked up to the router which has it's own firewall I
routinely see a large number of blocked access attempts, quite a few
from China, listed on Firestarter's events tab. I'll use a firewall if
it's all the same to you.

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"
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From jim_kielman at shaw.ca  Wed Sep  1 06:13:55 2010
From: jim_kielman at shaw.ca (Jim Kielman)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 23:13:55 -0700
Subject: Firestarter
In-Reply-To: <20100901004228.GA18465@cox.net>
References: <AANLkTimN4oFby-B9ieEmJG7ebBceX6kVjJyEApQKP9wE@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100830212051.GA3990@cox.net> <1283204988.2554.1.camel@falcon>
	<201008301758.39486.ubuntu@kitterman.com>
	<1283266757.19616.1.camel@falcon>
	<1283268061.13048.2.camel@blue> <4C7D99D3.6040604@shaw.ca>
	<20100901004228.GA18465@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4C7DEF23.8060405@shaw.ca>

On 10-08-31 05:42 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 05:09:55PM -0700, Jim Kielman wrote:
>>
>> are more then adequate for the average user that is running any
>> services. To answer your questions as to why they have to use a
>> firewall, they don't, it's just something they did when they ran
>> Windows, and they can't believe they can be safe on the internet without
>> one. Personally I don't run one at home, and only enable the firewall
>> when I'm out with my netbook.
>
> When I'm not hooked up to the router which has it's own firewall I
> routinely see a large number of blocked access attempts, quite a few
> from China, listed on Firestarter's events tab. I'll use a firewall if
> it's all the same to you.
>
>

If you are using Firestarter to watch the firewall logs, you're doing it 
wrong. Firestarter needs to be run as root which is a security risk, it 
is only meant to be run to set the firewall rules and then shut down. 
The firewall rules don't disappear once Firestarter is shut down.

Personally I don't care where access attempts come from as long as they 
are blocked. Watching blocked attempts just makes me paranoid, so I 
don't bother.

All blocked access attempts are logged to /var/log/auth.log, you can 
view the log via the Log File Viewer, if you are really curious.



From holtzm at cox.net  Wed Sep  1 21:31:33 2010
From: holtzm at cox.net (Robert Holtzman)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 14:31:33 -0700
Subject: Firestarter
In-Reply-To: <4C7DEF23.8060405@shaw.ca>
References: <AANLkTimN4oFby-B9ieEmJG7ebBceX6kVjJyEApQKP9wE@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100830212051.GA3990@cox.net> <1283204988.2554.1.camel@falcon>
	<201008301758.39486.ubuntu@kitterman.com>
	<1283266757.19616.1.camel@falcon> <1283268061.13048.2.camel@blue>
	<4C7D99D3.6040604@shaw.ca> <20100901004228.GA18465@cox.net>
	<4C7DEF23.8060405@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <20100901213133.GA3425@cox.net>

On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 11:13:55PM -0700, Jim Kielman wrote:

          ..........snip...........

> 
> If you are using Firestarter to watch the firewall logs, you're
> doing it wrong. Firestarter needs to be run as root which is a
> security risk, it is only meant /var/log/auth.logto be run to set the firewall rules
> and then shut down. The firewall rules don't disappear once
> Firestarter is shut down.

For a while I ran it as user by editing /etc/sudoers. As soon as I saw
what was being blocked I deleted the entry.

> 
> Personally I don't care where access attempts come from as long as
> they are blocked. Watching blocked attempts just makes me paranoid,
> so I don't bother.

It's interesting.

> 
> All blocked access attempts are logged to /var/log/auth.log, you can
> view the log via the Log File Viewer, if you are really curious.

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"
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From costamagnagianfranco at yahoo.it  Wed Sep  1 22:28:01 2010
From: costamagnagianfranco at yahoo.it (Gianfranco Costamagna)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 22:28:01 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Ubuntu w/ ksplice
Message-ID: <661002.70443.qm@web26705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

As reported by slashdot [1] fedora now has ksplice by default.

What about ubuntu?
I could see this [2] [3]


[1] 
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/10/08/31/191228/No-More-Need-To-Reboot-Fedora-w-Ksplice

[2] http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/10069/
[3] http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/7523/

Just my two cents


Gianfranco



      




From ilidrissiamine at gmail.com  Wed Sep  1 22:32:26 2010
From: ilidrissiamine at gmail.com (Mohamed Amine IL Idrissi)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 22:32:26 +0000
Subject: Ubuntu w/ ksplice
In-Reply-To: <661002.70443.qm@web26705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <661002.70443.qm@web26705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin5_Nf3s6-R868QdZZFKoh8KkN7R6ayaV7DqYUF@mail.gmail.com>

The article states Ksplice is now free for Fedora users, not that it
is the default.
However, the technology is quite interesting, so I hope other users
and devs can share their ideas.

Thank you,
Mohamed Amine IL Idrissi

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 10:28 PM, Gianfranco Costamagna
<costamagnagianfranco at yahoo.it> wrote:
> As reported by slashdot [1] fedora now has ksplice by default.
>
> What about ubuntu?
> I could see this [2] [3]
>
>
> [1]
> http://linux.slashdot.org/story/10/08/31/191228/No-More-Need-To-Reboot-Fedora-w-Ksplice
>
> [2] http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/10069/
> [3] http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/7523/
>
> Just my two cents
>
>
> Gianfranco
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list
> Ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
>



From kklimonda at ubuntu.com  Wed Sep  1 22:42:22 2010
From: kklimonda at ubuntu.com (Krzysztof Klimonda)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 00:42:22 +0200
Subject: Ubuntu w/ ksplice
In-Reply-To: <661002.70443.qm@web26705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <661002.70443.qm@web26705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1283380942.13803.29.camel@blue>

On Wed, 2010-09-01 at 22:28 +0000, Gianfranco Costamagna wrote:
> As reported by slashdot [1] fedora now has ksplice by default.
> 
> What about ubuntu?
(...)

Well, in the article linked from slashdot you can actually read:

"Fedora joins Ubuntu Desktop as a supported desktop distribution for the
free installation of Ksplice Uptrack. Red Hat, CentOS, Debian, Ubuntu
Server and CloudLinux are supported server distributions(...)"

As I understand the "Ksplice Uptrack" is a service where they provide
security updates so you don't have to prepare them yourself. We also
provide a ksplice package in universe - you can use it to prepare such
an update yourself.

Cheers,
 KK
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From zhengpeng-hou at ubuntu.com  Thu Sep  2 04:25:36 2010
From: zhengpeng-hou at ubuntu.com (Zhengpeng Hou)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 12:25:36 +0800
Subject: FFe: migrate to ibus-1.3 series
In-Reply-To: <fb7465351003282240ndc152e4kcd597acbb0abb303@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bf0bb42f1003280207s3ae40c4due77afec846c598ca@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100329030419.GA31170@dario.dodds.net>
	<fb7465351003282240ndc152e4kcd597acbb0abb303@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimbXYgXtGg3gfUYggti8BJ65fQ5u8pfXSa=-ZcD@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,
I have to raise this up once again.  A memory leak has been found in lucid
https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ibus/+bug/583954
Jonathan Riddell approached me yesterday, discussed a SRU, I'd prefer we
can
SRU the whole ibus and related IME, which can provide end users better UX,
especially lucid is a LTS release.

Cheers
Zhengpeng

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Peng Huang <shawn.p.huang at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Steve Langasek,
>
> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 11:04 AM, Steve Langasek <
> steve.langasek at ubuntu.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Zhengpeng,
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 05:07:31PM +0800, Zhengpeng Hou wrote:
>> > Hi All,
>> > I'm sorry to bring this up at almost the last stage of Lucid
>> > development cycle. Since Lucid will
>> > be another LTS, so I think I'd better to raise this up. IBus 1.3 has
>> > been released on 2010-03-21, just
>> > one week ago, and most of those packages have been uploaded to Debian
>> > experimental already[1], which
>> > means that those in experimental have been built and installed
>> successfully.
>> > I have discussed with upstream on this as well, Peng Huang also
>> > recommended to use ibus-1.3 series for
>> > Lucid,  upstream will focus on 1.3 series mostly,  then if we still
>> > use 1.2 series in a LTS release, we'll have
>> > to backport any bug fix from 1.3 series.
>> > The majority changes in IBus 1.3 series as below, diff of Changelog
>> > attached for reference.
>> >    1 use floating IBusObject
>> >    2 support share one global engine in all applications
>> >    3 some ui improvements
>> >    4 bug fixes
>>
>> > So I'd suggest to have ibus-1.3 pulled into Lucid from Debian
>> > experimental. Since this new upstream release
>> > will have abi transition, therefore I prefer to discuss this more
>> > before filing FFe.
>>
>> > NB, Peng Huang might not be on this list, so if you can CC him, that
>> > would be great.
>>
>> The first packaged release of ibus 1.2 was in June 2009; before that, the
>> 1.1 series only lasted from April 2009 to June 2009.  Is there a reason to
>> expect that ibus 1.3 will be developed for a longer period of time than
>> 1.1
>> or 1.2 was?  If not, the backport argument doesn't carry much weight with
>> me:  yes, it will be easier to backport bug fixes, but only for a short
>> time; and because 1.3 is so fresh, there is much more chance that we will
>> *need* to backport fixes!
>>
>
> From 1.2 to 1.3, many low level C interfaces have been updated (using the
> floating IBusObject). It cause most of C source files been changed. I think
> back porting fixes in C code between 1.3 and 1.2 will be more hard. And 1.3
> includes the new feature sharing the global engine. It is asked by  many
> users. So if ubuntu could uses 1.3, it will be better.
>
> BTW, currently all IME development is focus on 1.3 too. So I think ubuntu
> will get more benefit, if it use the ibus-1.3. And it is good for upstream
> too. it could reduce issues reported for old ibus releases in upstream, and
> we could be more concentrative on 1.3 bug fixing and future version
> development. And for us IME developers, they does not need upgrade ibus to
> 1.3 in ubuntu any more.
>
> Wish ubuntu will use the new release. Thanks.
>
> Regards,
> Peng Huang
>
>
>>
>> Unless you can point to specific, high-severity problems with ibus 1.2
>> that
>> would be fixed by moving to 1.3, I would nack this.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> --
>> Steve Langasek                   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
>> Debian Developer                   to set it on, and I can move the world.
>> Ubuntu Developer
>> http://www.debian.org/
>> slangasek at ubuntu.com
>> vorlon at debian.org
>>
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From happyaron.xu at gmail.com  Thu Sep  2 11:52:59 2010
From: happyaron.xu at gmail.com (Aron Xu)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 19:52:59 +0800
Subject: FFe: migrate to ibus-1.3 series
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimbXYgXtGg3gfUYggti8BJ65fQ5u8pfXSa=-ZcD@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bf0bb42f1003280207s3ae40c4due77afec846c598ca@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100329030419.GA31170@dario.dodds.net>
	<fb7465351003282240ndc152e4kcd597acbb0abb303@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimbXYgXtGg3gfUYggti8BJ65fQ5u8pfXSa=-ZcD@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100902115259.GA7361@aron-desktop>


On Thu, Sep 02, 2010 at 12:25:36PM +0800, Zhengpeng Hou wrote:
> Hi all,
> I have to raise this up once again.  A memory leak has been found in
> lucid
> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ibus/+bug/583954
> Jonathan Riddell approached me yesterday, discussed a SRU, I'd prefer
> we can 
> SRU the whole ibus and related IME, which can provide end users better
> UX,
> especially lucid is a LTS release.
> 
> Cheers
> Zhengpeng
> 

I think this topic worth a discussion, serious memory leak is found in
an important CJK support part that included to LTS CD images but is hard 
to get it fixed.

During the Lucid release cycle, we decided to not updating ibus and
friends finally in this thread in the reason of "stability", even though
upstream author and package maintainer of Debian both gave their
positive cents on support the upgrade from old 1.2 series to new 1.3
series. Now we probably need another difficult decision about SRU a new
release of them. AFAIK, ibus is not being maintained actively in Ubuntu
and developers have chosen a very cautious attitude on its update or
not. 

ibus is an actively developed project and produce many bug fixes and new
features in a short time, and Ubuntu developers were felt it hard to get
up-to-date, so guesses about backporting bug fixes appears.
Unfortunately, ibus 1.3 has got major changes from 1.2 so that fixes are
not that easy to get backported. Here we should tell, wether we have
some Ubuntu developer find and fix the bug, or we just make 1.3 series
to be uploaded. 1.3 series is the currently upstream supported branch
and we've just solved the indicater intergation of ibus in LP: #564034
so there has no Critial bugs for Maverick, and two more High importance
bug, LP: #329898 and LP: #625696 are still open for a fix or work
around. Those two bugs should get fixed before Maverick released, either
by upstream release or providing fixes elsewhere, so they shouldn't get
in the way if we decide to make them in an SRU for Lucid release. 

Updating ibus will pull in some other related packages (mostly ibus-*), 
but it is not difficult to resolve since we've just did it in Maverick.


-- 
Regards,
Aron Xu

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From kklimonda at ubuntu.com  Thu Sep  2 13:26:33 2010
From: kklimonda at ubuntu.com (Krzysztof Klimonda)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 15:26:33 +0200
Subject: FFe: migrate to ibus-1.3 series
In-Reply-To: <20100902115259.GA7361@aron-desktop>
References: <bf0bb42f1003280207s3ae40c4due77afec846c598ca@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100329030419.GA31170@dario.dodds.net>
	<fb7465351003282240ndc152e4kcd597acbb0abb303@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimbXYgXtGg3gfUYggti8BJ65fQ5u8pfXSa=-ZcD@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100902115259.GA7361@aron-desktop>
Message-ID: <1283433993.18800.18.camel@blue>

On Thu, 2010-09-02 at 19:52 +0800, Aron Xu wrote:
> 
> I think this topic worth a discussion, serious memory leak is found in
> an important CJK support part that included to LTS CD images but is hard 
> to get it fixed.

Is the memory leak really that serious? Bug report mentions "130MB over
few days", I wouldn't call that serious - especially that there are at
least two simple workarounds: Shut down your computer when you go to
sleep/home or restart process.

If we really don't have active maintainers for ibus stack in Ubuntu
backporting whole stack to Lucid may be risky - we can introduce
regressions that aren't as easily worked around as the memory leak
itself.
There are 12 different ibus dependant packages, would all of them have
to be updated? Some are probably used only be a small number of people -
will they get enough testing for regressions once the land in -proposed?

And also is 1.3 going to be supported by upstream for a longer time or
are we going to have the same problem if some bug is discovered in 1.3
and upstream suggests updating to 1.4?

Does #625696 affect 10.04? It's not mentioned in the report, #329898
does look like something that would be nice to get fixed but again - is
it important enough to risk regressions?

Cheers,
 KK
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From digidietze at draisberghof.de  Thu Sep  2 17:22:28 2010
From: digidietze at draisberghof.de (Josua Dietze)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 19:22:28 +0200
Subject: Including usb-modeswitch in default installation?
In-Reply-To: <b97f4ee41002240659n5116c08eq38b6f1fb3201b166@mail.gmail.com>
References: <68da43e01002070616n69c781a5tc39f0d2d762b76d8@mail.gmail.com>	<1267023000.2036.35.camel@quest>
	<b97f4ee41002240659n5116c08eq38b6f1fb3201b166@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C7FDD54.8080202@draisberghof.de>

Am 24.02.2010 15:59, schrieb Peteris Krisjanis:

> 2010/2/24 Scott James Remnant<scott at ubuntu.com>:
>> On Sun, 2010-02-07 at 16:16 +0200, Timo Jyrinki wrote:
>>
>>> Any objections or observations for a MIR (main inclusion request) of
>>> usb-modeswitch and inclusion on the default installation of Ubuntu
>>> 10.04 LTS? Binary package size is 30kB + 10kB (data).
>>>
>> I have an objection on the basis that we *already* have modem-modeswitch
>> (in the udev binary package), and Kernel code that already attempts much
>> the same thing.
>>
>> We shouldn't have three independent pieces overlapping like this,
>> especially since we'll almost certainly end up with conflicts between
>> them.
>>
>> One of these should "win" to be the default; that discussion shouldn't
>> be specific to Ubuntu but should happen on the upstream
>> linux-hotplug at vger.kernel.org mailing list.
>>
>
> I fully agree with you Scott, however I am not sure which one of us
> should start discussion there. Would be nice for you Ubuntu guys to
> start pushing this idea, because you have some backing.
>
> Anyway, I'm subscribing to that list and if no one will volunteer, I
> will try to initialize discussion.


I want to recall that discussion from February.

In the meantime, things have happened. Modem-modeswitch has been 
obsoleted upstream, it was reduced to a tool for switching a single 
device (Mobile Action Cable). The autor (Dan Williams) discourages any 
use for other mobile data equipment.

Again, the kernel developers are rejecting any new switching code and 
decided to keep the existing code only for backward compatibility reasons.
This kernel code affects some old devices from Option, Huawei and the 
Sierra family. All recent devices apart from Sierra have to be treated 
in userspace.

Even if there should be a "conflict" between kernel code and 
usb_modeswitch, there are all kinds of tests that prevent the latter 
from doing anything of relevance if the respective device stops being 
accessible during the preparation phase (which involves a little delay 
to give way to the kernel).
The switching process results in the disappearance of the original 
device, so the signal to userspace is very loud and clear if the 
kernel does it.

The current usb_modeswitch version 1.1.4 is boot-proof which was 
tested on several different distributions including Debian 5, 
OpenSUSE, Fedora 13, Ubuntu 9.10/10.4, Mandriva 2010.0.
See Debian-unstable for packages.


Josua Dietze




From martin.pitt at ubuntu.com  Thu Sep  2 17:28:57 2010
From: martin.pitt at ubuntu.com (Martin Pitt)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 19:28:57 +0200
Subject: Including usb-modeswitch in default installation?
In-Reply-To: <4C7FDD54.8080202@draisberghof.de>
References: <68da43e01002070616n69c781a5tc39f0d2d762b76d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<1267023000.2036.35.camel@quest>
	<b97f4ee41002240659n5116c08eq38b6f1fb3201b166@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C7FDD54.8080202@draisberghof.de>
Message-ID: <20100902172857.GN2485@piware.de>

Hello Josua,

Josua Dietze [2010-09-02 19:22 +0200]:
> In the meantime, things have happened. 

Indeed! usb-modeswitch is in Maverick by default, replacing
modem-modeswitch. :-)

Martin
-- 
Martin Pitt                        | http://www.piware.de
Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com)  | Debian Developer  (www.debian.org)



From digidietze at draisberghof.de  Thu Sep  2 17:38:48 2010
From: digidietze at draisberghof.de (Josua Dietze)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 19:38:48 +0200
Subject: Including usb-modeswitch in default installation?
In-Reply-To: <20100902172857.GN2485@piware.de>
References: <68da43e01002070616n69c781a5tc39f0d2d762b76d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<1267023000.2036.35.camel@quest>
	<b97f4ee41002240659n5116c08eq38b6f1fb3201b166@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C7FDD54.8080202@draisberghof.de>
	<20100902172857.GN2485@piware.de>
Message-ID: <4C7FE128.3000705@draisberghof.de>

Am 02.09.2010 19:28, schrieb Martin Pitt:

> Hello Josua,
>
> Josua Dietze [2010-09-02 19:22 +0200]:
>> In the meantime, things have happened.
>
> Indeed! usb-modeswitch is in Maverick by default, replacing
> modem-modeswitch. :-)


Oops! Sorry for the noise, should have checked ...

Thanks,
Josua




From happyaron.xu at gmail.com  Fri Sep  3 06:01:06 2010
From: happyaron.xu at gmail.com (Aron Xu)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 14:01:06 +0800
Subject: FFe: migrate to ibus-1.3 series
In-Reply-To: <1283433726.18800.17.camel@blue>
References: <bf0bb42f1003280207s3ae40c4due77afec846c598ca@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100329030419.GA31170@dario.dodds.net>
	<fb7465351003282240ndc152e4kcd597acbb0abb303@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimbXYgXtGg3gfUYggti8BJ65fQ5u8pfXSa=-ZcD@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100902115259.GA7361@aron-desktop>
	<1283433726.18800.17.camel@blue>
Message-ID: <20100903060106.GA4079@aron-desktop>


On Thu, Sep 02, 2010 at 03:22:06PM +0200, Krzysztof Klimonda wrote:
> On Thu, 2010-09-02 at 19:52 +0800, Aron Xu wrote:
> > I think this topic worth a discussion, serious memory leak is found
> > in
> > an important CJK support part that included to LTS CD images but is
> > hard 
> > to get it fixed.
> 
> Is the memory leak really that serious? Bug report mentions "130MB
> over
> few days", I wouldn't call that serious - especially that there are at
> least two simple workarounds: Shut down your computer when you go to
> sleep/home or restart process.

Memory leak is very noticable when a user is actually typing many
things - you could read there are someone saying that typing every word
is
making it leak more. Ubuntu requires only 384MB RAM for an installation, 
butonly an input method will take around 300MB when there is memory
leak. 
The description of that bug only indicates on of the two process that
could
probably has memory leak. The another one will use up another 100MB
memory when the leak appears.

The workaround doesn't fix the security risk caused by the memory leak.

> 
> If we really don't have active maintainers for ibus stack in Ubuntu
> backporting whole stack to Lucid may be risky - we can introduce
> regressions that aren't as easily worked around as the memory leak
> itself.
> There are 12 different ibus dependant packages, would all of them have
> to be updated? Some are probably used only be a small number of people
> -
> will they get enough testing for regressions once the land in
> -proposed?
> 

There isn't active maintainer in Ubuntu, but the software has an active 
upstream, and there are a team who are maintaining the packages actively
in Debian. When there is nobody taking care of fixing bugs, it makes no
sense to say updating to a working branch which resolves many bugs are
facing risks. The good point for not updating to a newer version is
don't have the risk of regressions; the risk of not updating is old bugs
that already fixed upstream cannot be applied to our packages (firstly
changes are not easy to backport, secondly we are lacking for
maintainer).

Not all of the related packages need to be updated, the update from 1.2
to 1.3 only updates the C/C++ interface, and Python part is not changed, 
so many packages don't actually need an update. Here is list of packages 
that is the most important for QA: ibus, ibus-pinyin, ibus-chewing, 
ibus-anthy and ibus-hangul.

> And also is 1.3 going to be supported by upstream for a longer time or
> are we going to have the same problem if some bug is discovered in 1.3
> and upstream suggests updating to 1.4?
> 

The problem was, when upstream suggests updating to 1.3, we are still in
Lucid development cycle but decided to not update. And the problem is,
for now, whether an update to 1.3 is worthy, but not stuck at
discussions about whatif the same situation happen with Lucid support 
cycle goes on. With the cycle goes by, more and more users will upgrade
to newer releases. Those who have chosen to stay with an LTS just want
to have a solid platform for their deployment, so whether this update
can 
provide better stability is our key topic here.

> Does #625696 affect 10.04? It's not mentioned in the report, #329898
> does look like something that would be nice to get fixed but again -
> is
> it important enough to risk regressions?
> 
> Cheers,
>  KK

The two bugs I listed are bugs we should give a fix before Maverick
release, they also should be fixed if we decide to have an SRU.


-- 
Regards,
Aron Xu


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From gnomefreak at gmail.com  Fri Sep  3 12:31:42 2010
From: gnomefreak at gmail.com (John Vivirito)
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 08:31:42 -0400
Subject: Maverick Alpha3 +nvidia-96 +updates
In-Reply-To: <i5cian$s87$2@dough.gmane.org>
References: <i3vjkl$837$1@dough.gmane.org>	<AANLkTi=oAym2h-9ZsFMR8NybpzuaJGGWnGaV097QOD5-@mail.gmail.com>	<i429s2$rqa$1@dough.gmane.org>	<AANLkTinhNOYRMug=7nY-Y5cyAGrZ8pvfCGAaF00qc4vd@mail.gmail.com>	<4C7415DD.8080809@gmail.com>
	<i5cian$s87$2@dough.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <4C80EAAE.6080502@gmail.com>

On 08/28/2010 10:57 PM, NoOp wrote:
> On 08/24/2010 11:56 AM, John Vivirito wrote:
>> On 08/13/2010 01:53 AM, Robert Hooker wrote:
> ...
>>>
>>> You are going to have to use nouveau for now, the proprietary
>>> nvidia-96 and nvidia-173 drivers do not work with xserver 1.9 and most
>>> likely will not until right before release. 256.44 that is in
>>> ppa:ubuntu-x-swat/x-updates does work for the GPU's it supports with
>>> IgnoreABI added to the serverflags section in your xorg.conf but the
>>> older releases don't. If you want accelerated 3D (for compiz) with
>>> nouveau you can install the libgl1-mesa-dri-experimental package if
>>> you are using the mesa 7.8 that is in maverick.
>>>
>>> http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=14 is the proper
>>> place to report the problem, we can't do anything about it with the
>>> binary drivers.
>>>
>> Robert what do you mean it font get fixed till right before release?
>> that is 2 months away
>>
>
> John, I don't know what Robert means either, but I do see that Alberto
> has added nvidia-96 to this bug report:
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nvidia-graphics-drivers-96/+bug/616214>
> [Should Depend: on appropriate xserver-xorg-video-$ABI]
>
> More:
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nvidia-graphics-drivers/+bug/616023>
>
> I suspect that Robert is correct in stating:
> <quote>
> http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=14 is the proper
> place to report the problem, we can't do anything about it with the
> binary drivers.
> </quote>
>
> Unfortunately, issue will affect many other distros as well. So I reckon
> the only solution may be to put pressure on nVidia directly.
>
> Quite a few cards that will be affected if this is not fixed by Maverick
> release:
> ====
> http://www.nvidia.com/object/linux-display-ia32-96.43.18-driver.html
> GeForce 4 MX series:
> MX 440, MX 440 (AGP 8X), MX 420 (AGP 8X), MX 420, MX 440-SE, MX
> Integrated GPU, MX 460, MX 440SE (AGP 8X), MX 4000
>
> Quadro NVS series:
> NVS 285, NVS 55/280 PCI, NVS 210, NVS 420, NVS 450, NVS 50, NVS 295, NVS
> 280, NVS 440, NVS 290
>
> Quadro 4 Go series:
> 500 GoGL, 550 XGL, 700 GoGL
>
> Quadro 2 Go series:
> MXR/EX/Go
>
> GeForce 4 Ti series:
> Ti 4800, Ti 4800 SE, Ti 4400, Ti 4200 (AGP 8X), Ti 4200, Ti 4600
>
> GeForce 2 series:
> Ti 200, GeForce3, Ti 500
>
> Quadro 2 MXR series:
> Quadro2 MXR/EX/Go
> ====
>
> And I suspect quite a few non-technical Ubuntu users will be up in arms
> come release time when they find out that they can no longer use
> compiz/3D with Maverick. Perhaps the Ubuntu dev's can put a little
> pressure on nVidia to deal with this so it can be fixed/tested before
> release?
>
> I also don't see https://launchpad.net/~xorg-edgers/+archive/ppa /
> https://launchpad.net/~xorg-edgers/+archive/ppa?field.series_filter=maverick
> as a viable option. That ppa has *way* too many packages in it for the
> normal tester to try unless on a dedicated test machine. Further, it
> seems to only concern nvidia-graphics-drivers 256&  unless I've missed
> something I see nothing regarding nvidia-96.
>
>
>
>
>
Nvidia upload may fix this problem but if you look at 
https://launchpad.net/bugs/616023
that will fix the abi problem and that is the most widely bug.
it should be push through new by now if not than soon

-- 
Sincerely Yours,
     John Vivirito

https://launchpad.net/~gnomefreak
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JohnVivirito
Linux User# 414246al
"How can i get lost, if i have no where to go"
     -- Metallica from Unforgiven III



From sl.solaris at gmail.com  Fri Sep  3 23:50:53 2010
From: sl.solaris at gmail.com (solaris manzur)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 18:50:53 -0500
Subject: Ubuntu-devel-discuss Digest, Vol 45, Issue 30
In-Reply-To: <mailman.107.1283252418.14004.ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com>
References: <mailman.107.1283252418.14004.ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikGbABFEuJymfMj0HMEG75aucGmV76sABTJhhDz@mail.gmail.com>

Hey you people there is a problem with the new default ubuntu theme... and
it is that tooltips are completely blank, it should haev a glow affect and
be grey, which is a better option

-- 
Abraham de Jesus Quintero Melendez
Desarrollador Web, PHP - AJAX - MYSQL
Cel: (+57) 300 - 483 8410
Barranquilla - Colombia
"Es intentando lo imposible como se realiza lo posible."
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From lucian.grijincu at gmail.com  Sat Sep  4 07:54:53 2010
From: lucian.grijincu at gmail.com (Lucian Adrian Grijincu)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 10:54:53 +0300
Subject: text-mode console font
Message-ID: <AANLkTimttOKBi3uwRDafOG8JfpG9+0oGRuGBihMai5y6@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I've recently seen that the console font (I mean the CTRL+ALT+Fn
console) used on my system does not support the diacritics specific to
the Romanian language (but other symbols like € and đ were missing
too). These characters are rendered as small squares. This is
particularly annoying as some manual pages are localized and one has a
hard time reading documentation to fix some general problem that
required a trip to CTRL+ALT+Fn land.


After searching a bit I found the console-setup package and saw
(fontforge) that at least a part of the fonts in there have glyphs for
these diacritics.

console-setup's README pointed me to the 'setupcon' utility. Running
'setupcon -v -f' in a console changed the console's font and brought
support for the missing diacritics (including € and đ).

I'm now stuck as I have no idea which program loads which fonts at
what time, and why 'setupcon -v -f' (or an equivalent) cannot be
executed by default when starting a virtual console.

Can someone point out what needs to be done to have proper font
support by default when one enters a Linux console with CTRL+ALT+Fn,
or at least point me to the package that needs fixing/tweaking?
-- 
 .
..: Lucian



From lucian.grijincu at gmail.com  Sat Sep  4 09:19:07 2010
From: lucian.grijincu at gmail.com (Lucian Adrian Grijincu)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 12:19:07 +0300
Subject: text-mode console font
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikJ_vU3EGzHW5MYWwiX7sTGz-1QRSLgThORtXGx@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimttOKBi3uwRDafOG8JfpG9+0oGRuGBihMai5y6@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikyJU_08Jf4xd3t7ic=RgequNGuifyhKU7CU-UN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikJ_vU3EGzHW5MYWwiX7sTGz-1QRSLgThORtXGx@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikov46n4ZcG4kWWB86hBdUS25JLAQaYxG2hgO1S@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 11:36 AM, Alexey Ten (Lynn)
<alexeyten+deb at gmail.com> wrote:
> sudo dpkg-reconfigure console-setup

I ran it and it said:
Your console font configuration will be updated the next time your system
boots. If you want to update it now, run 'setupcon' from a virtual console.
update-initramfs: Generating /boot/initrd.img-2.6.35-19-generic


For each font selected in 'sudo dpkg-reconfigure console-setup' I ran
'setupcon' in a virtual terminal. All fonts seem to have appropiate
support for these diacritics.

I rebooted hoping to see the changes being applied after reboot (as
the output of 'sudo dpkg-reconfigure console-setup' suggested). I was
greeted by the same font that had missing characters (and displayed
them as filled squares). This font has a
different aspect than the ones that were set up by 'setupcon'.


There seem to be two problems:
a) there is a font with insufficient support for these characters
b) the changes made by 'sudo dpkg-reconfigure console-setup' are not used
by default when opening a virtual console.


This on an up-to-date Maverick. You can test this on your
systems by entring the "€" character in a virtual console (that's
AltGr+E on my keyboard layout, YMMV).

--
 .
..: Lucian



From quadrispro at ubuntu.com  Sat Sep  4 10:12:10 2010
From: quadrispro at ubuntu.com (Alessio Treglia)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 12:12:10 +0200
Subject: [ubuntu/maverick] simple-scan 2.31.91-0ubuntu1 (Accepted): Why this?
Message-ID: <AANLkTikEz1w7DyQQ7ANex+Wg62Xoz4obdOhr61e-k_ei@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

on 30/08/2010 I uploaded the new upstream release of simple-scan to
Debian experimental [1], a couple of days later I filed a merge
request against simple-scan on Ubuntu [2] and I think you can imagine
my surprise yesterday to see the following message:

On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 10:38 AM, Robert Ancell
<robert.ancell at canonical.com> wrote:
> simple-scan (2.31.91-0ubuntu1) maverick; urgency=low
>
>  * New upstream release
>
> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 11:13:49 +1000
> Changed-By: Robert Ancell <robert.ancell at canonical.com>
> Maintainer: Ubuntu Desktop Team <ubuntu-desktop at lists.ubuntu.com>
> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+source/simple-scan/2.31.91-0ubuntu1

I really fail to see any valid reason to ignore my merge request, I
hope it's not because the upstream author doesn't like all the job I
do on both Ubuntu and Debian to keep up the quality of the packaging
by providing regular updates, triaging bugs, minimizing the delta and
more.


So I'd like to figure out where the problem is.


PostScriptum:
 Please note that I've already mailed Robert about this and to ask him
if he'd like to help me to maintain the simple-scan for Debian too.
 I still haven't received any response.


[1] http://packages.qa.debian.org/s/simple-scan/news/20100830T233207Z.html
[2] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/simple-scan/+bug/628773

-- 
Alessio Treglia <alessio at alessiotreglia.com>
Debian & Ubuntu Developer | Homepage: http://www.alessiotreglia.com
0FEC 59A5 E18E E04F 6D40 593B 45D4 8C7C DCFC 3FD0



From bilalakhtar at ubuntu.com  Sat Sep  4 11:28:48 2010
From: bilalakhtar at ubuntu.com (Bilal Akhtar)
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 14:28:48 +0300
Subject: Twitter shutting down basic auth; Need to get liboauth into Ubuntu
Message-ID: <1283599728.2508.23.camel@bilal-laptop>

Hello all!
	As we all know, Twitter has shut down basic auth for all Twitter
clients. Developers will need to use OAuth to authenticate with
Twitter's API. The problem here is, there is no OAuth library in C in
Ubuntu right now, but there is a need by many Twitter clients to get one
into Ubuntu. There is one OAuth library in C (libOAuth) that has been
awaiting sponsorship for a long time in Debian (I have been poking
sponsors around, most of them are busy). I think it would be quicker if
I get it into Ubuntu through the (lonely) REVU process. In any case, I
would need an FFe and also a UIFe. Which road should I take to get this
one quickly into Ubuntu?

The package is completely ready (lintian clean and stuff) on
mentors.debian.net. It is also there on REVU, but that is very much
outdated.

Bilal Akhtar.
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From cosme.ddiaz at gmail.com  Sat Sep  4 12:04:06 2010
From: cosme.ddiaz at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Cosme_Dom=EDnguez_D=EDaz?=)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 14:04:06 +0200
Subject: Twitter shutting down basic auth; Need to get liboauth into Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <1283599728.2508.23.camel@bilal-laptop>
References: <1283599728.2508.23.camel@bilal-laptop>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=0uddvK8YxoWug1B6fpdYSswpupfCKAAeSBhT=@mail.gmail.com>

2010/9/4 Bilal Akhtar <bilalakhtar at ubuntu.com>:
> The package is completely ready (lintian clean and stuff) on
> mentors.debian.net. It is also there on REVU, but that is very much
> outdated.

Direct link, please?



From bilalakhtar at ubuntu.com  Sat Sep  4 12:16:39 2010
From: bilalakhtar at ubuntu.com (Bilal Akhtar)
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 15:16:39 +0300
Subject: Twitter shutting down basic auth; Need to get liboauth into Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=0uddvK8YxoWug1B6fpdYSswpupfCKAAeSBhT=@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1283599728.2508.23.camel@bilal-laptop>
	<AANLkTi=0uddvK8YxoWug1B6fpdYSswpupfCKAAeSBhT=@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1283602599.5122.0.camel@bilal-laptop>

On Sat, 2010-09-04 at 14:04 +0200, Cosme Domínguez Díaz wrote:

> Direct link, please?
> 
http://mentors.debian.net/cgi-bin/sponsor-pkglist?action=details;package=liboauth


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From paul at mad-scientist.net  Sat Sep  4 19:46:15 2010
From: paul at mad-scientist.net (Paul Smith)
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 15:46:15 -0400
Subject: Where can I find more docs/help on upstart?
Message-ID: <1283629575.3590.13.camel@psmith-laptop>

Esp. how it interacts with Ubuntu/Debian packaging.

For example on my Ubuntu 10.04 system I installed tftpd-hpa and find
that it's been converted to upstart.

No problem, except that I don't want it to start when my system boots, I
want it to be started via xinetd (I need it to work this way in order to
test compatibility with other software; please don't suggest "just don't
do that"... I have to do it).

What's the proper/recommended way to change the configuration of this
package so that (a) it doesn't conflict with new packages installed, and
(b) upstart does not try to start tftpd when my system boots.

In the "old" SysV way there were fancy tools that managed the SysV
symlinks and a method for modifying them that was, be consensus,
preserved across upgrades/etc.  How do I do the equivalent thing with
upstart?

I (finally) found the init.5 man page so I see the format of the config
file, but is there some way to customize the startup of these packages
other than hand-editing conf files?

So far my Google/etc. searching for admin-level details of upstart
hasn't netted me very much.


Thanks!




From tatkinson321 at googlemail.com  Mon Sep  6 16:05:23 2010
From: tatkinson321 at googlemail.com (Tony Atkinson)
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 17:05:23 +0100
Subject: An Open Letter to Ubuntu Developers
Message-ID: <1283789123.19211.10.camel@tony-desktop>

An Open Letter to Ubuntu Developers
(apologies for the length)

First of all, I would like to thank all that participate in Free
Software.
I could write for days about how I appreciate individual upstream
projects and the work done by various distributions, but for brevity I'm
lumping all this into one big thank you.

This is not meant to be a series of rants, please do not take it as
such.
I am hoping this will come across as a comprehensive series of
observations of desktop Linux usage, from a long-time (and I like to
think, competent) Linux user / sysadmin.

I am targeting this at the developers of Ubuntu.
I could have broken this down and targeted specific upstreams, but for
better or worse, I believe Ubuntu is gaining serious mainstream traction
on the desktop, and I think this will reach more people and have more
impact if I target Ubuntu specifically.
Having said that, none of this letter is intended to be Ubuntu specific,
instead being applicable across distros and upstream projects.


1) Applications, and their dependence on desktop environment libraries

Currently certain application rely on specific desktop environment
libraries to operate.

As examples,
if you install kate on stock Ubuntu 10.04, you pull in 108 packages,
totalling 330Mb

        akonadi-server exiv2 gdebi-kde icoutils install-package kate
        kdebase-runtime
        kdebase-runtime-data kdebase-workspace-bin
        kdebase-workspace-data
        kdebase-workspace-kgreet-plugins kdelibs-bin kdelibs5
        kdelibs5-data
        kdepim-runtime kdepimlibs-data kdepimlibs5 kdesudo kpackagekit
        ksysguardd
        kubuntu-debug-installer libakonadiprivate1 libattica0 libaudio2
        libboost-program-options1.40.0 libclucene0ldbl libdbusmenu-qt2
        libexiv2-6
        libiodbc2 libkephal4 libkfontinst4 libkscreensaver5 libksgrd4
        libkworkspace4
        libmng1 libmodplug0c2 libmpcdec3 libmysqlclient16
        libpackagekit-glib2-12
        libpackagekit-qt-12 libphonon4 libplasma-applet-system-monitor4
        libplasma-geolocation-interface4 libplasma3 libplasmaclock4
        libplasmagenericshell4 libpolkit-qt-1-0 libprocesscore4
        libprocessui4
        libqca2 libqimageblitz4 libqt4-assistant libqt4-dbus
        libqt4-designer
        libqt4-help libqt4-network libqt4-opengl libqt4-qt3support
        libqt4-script
        libqt4-scripttools libqt4-sql libqt4-sql-mysql libqt4-svg
        libqt4-test
        libqt4-webkit libqt4-xml libqt4-xmlpatterns libqtcore4 libqtgui4
        libsolidcontrol4 libsolidcontrolifaces4 libsoprano4 libssh-4
        libstreamanalyzer0 libstreams0 libtaskmanager4 libweather-ion4
        libxcb-shape0
        libxcb-shm0 libxcb-xv0 libxine1 libxine1-bin libxine1-console
        libxine1-misc-plugins libxine1-x mysql-client-core-5.1
        mysql-common
        mysql-server-core-5.1 oxygen-icon-theme packagekit
        packagekit-backend-apt
        phonon phonon-backend-xine plasma-dataengines-workspace
        plasma-scriptengine-javascript plasma-widgets-workspace
        polkit-kde-1
        python-kde4 python-packagekit python-qt4 python-sip
        shared-desktop-ontologies software-properties-kde soprano-daemon
        ttf-dejavu
        ttf-dejavu-extra update-manager-kde virtuoso-nepomuk


By contrast, if you install gedit on stock Kubuntu 10.04, you pull in 62
packages, totalling 72Mb

        esound-clients esound-common gamin gedit gedit-common
        gnome-mime-data gvfs
        gvfs-backends indicator-application launchpad-integration
        libappindicator0
        libart-2.0-2 libaudiofile0 libavahi-glib1 libbonobo2-0
        libbonobo2-common
        libbonoboui2-0 libbonoboui2-common libcdio-cdda0
        libcdio-paranoia0 libcdio10
        libdbusmenu-gtk1 libesd0 libgail18 libgamin0 libgdu0 libgnome2-0
        libgnome2-common libgnomecanvas2-0 libgnomecanvas2-common
        libgnomeui-0
        libgnomeui-common libgnomevfs2-0 libgnomevfs2-common
        libgtksourceview2.0-0
        libgtksourceview2.0-common libgvfscommon0 libindicator0
        libjson-glib-1.0-0
        liblaunchpad-integration1 libnotify1 libproxy0 libsexy2
        libsoup-gnome2.4-1
        libsoup2.4-1 libstartup-notification0 libwnck-common libwnck22
        libxcb-atom1
        libxcb-aux0 libxcb-event1 libxres1 notification-daemon
        policykit-1-gnome
        python-cairo python-gconf python-gnome2 python-gnomecanvas
        python-gtk2
        python-gtksourceview2 python-pyorbit zenity

Note the requirement for MySQL client libs when installing kate on
Ubuntu, and the requirement for Esound when installing gedit on Kubuntu.
These are obviously needed for some DE libraries, and (you'd hope)
should not impact the functionality of a simple GUI text editor.

I understand the fact that desktop environments provide a multitude of
services / functionality, including being platforms on which other
applications can be built.
But surely it's desirable (and possible) for apps to be DE agnostic, and
depend on plumbing libraries that are common (and shared) across DE's.

There must be a way for the plumbing elements of today's DE's to be
shared, and for the look & feel of a GUI app to be nothing more than a
very thin wrapper over a standard base.
I've never seen the logic in tying applications to specific DE
libraries.

Please do not think I'd trying to advocate the need for a single desktop
environment (far from it)
I like the choices that are available, and believe it sparks competition
and innovation.
but do one thing, and do it well, and currently desktop environments
seem to do a whole host of generic tasks, using their own bespoke
libraries, that could be split out into cross-environment libraries.

It's not like this is uncharted territory, either
There's a few examples of protocols / APIs that cater for new features /
abilities in specific implementations
OpenGL being one
Would it not be possible for all DE's to adhere to a standard protocol
Then, for example, if KDE 5, or Gnome 3.7 introduce a new concept, this
can be dealt with by an extension to the protocol
If the new concept is picked up by other DE's, then it can be written
into the core protocol


2) Everything's a file

This Unix philosophy seems to have been forgotten in many of today's
applications / userland servers

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the sound being output to the systems
soundcard(s) or individual apps were available via a file
Completely independent of whatever sound system (ALSA, OSS, OpenAL) or
sound server (PulseAudio, Jack) happens to be in use

        cat /dev/snd/stereo_out1 > ~/speaker_output.wav
        cat /dev/snd/pid_1234 > ~/app_output.wav

rather than the various custom and bespoke recording programs / shell
scripts that are needed currently

Also with capturing screencast videos
(ignoring arguments about codecs / containers)

        cat /dev/display/xscreen1 > ~/desktop_screencast.ogm
        cat /dev/display/pid_1234 > ~/app_screencast.ogm

Taking this one step further, if all AV produced by apps are available
via files, I think the process of combining various AV streams would be
greatly simplified.

Pipe the video stream from your screenA into a multiplexer
Cat audio streams from appX and appY into a mixer, and pipe combined
audio into the multiplexer
Redirect multiplexer output to a file

Don't think of the above as the typical user-facing way of doing things
More a standard framework for writing GUI apps to achieve such tasks.
I think this would greatly simplify, standardise, and enhance such GUI
helper apps for manipulating AV on a desktop machine, as all AV is dealt
with in a standard (and simple) way, and again, it would be sound system
and sound server agnostic.


3) Link GUI & CLI operations using common syntax

I'm in two minds about including this,
as this is not a usual use-case for the majority of people
but I'd love for all GUI applications to be invokable via the CLI, using
some standard syntax
I've found that often times I'll use a GUI app to perform some set of
operations, then I'm wanting to perform the same operations across
multiple files, and currently I'm forced to find alternative apps of
automating said operations

Eg. I've recently needed to perform the following operations on several
hundred photos
in order for them to blend in with a user-configurable webpage colour
scheme
(Making an image whose background gradually fades to transparent at the
image boundaries)
- Open image in the Gimp
- add a transparent layer
- Select all
- Shrink selection by 5px
- Feather selection by 5px
- Invert selection
- Clear selection (to transparent)
- Save as a PNG

Surely it should be possible to automate such GUI operations using a CLI
interface
and if you've got experience with a specific desktop app, I think it
would be hugely beneficial if you could keep using the same program both
on the GUI and on the CLI

        for IMG_FILE in $IMG_FILES; do
        	gimp-cli
        --process="layer-add:transparent;select-all;select-shrink:5px;select-feather:5px;select-invert;select-clear;file-save:${IMG_FILE}.png" $IMG_FILE
        done

I can think of a few examples of complex GUI operations that would
benefit from easy CLI automation
If some sort of standard syntax could be developed to automate
operations via a CLI interface, I'd die happy

And (this may be a little too ambitious, but just suppose) if the syntax
of these CLI operations could be sufficiently generalised across all GUI
applications, you could, given an arbitrary CLI command, spit back out a
simple bullet point set of GUI instructions for users to follow.
CLI is universally English, GUI is not.
This may be beneficial to documentation writers and translators
Write one command, and ask it to output GUI instructions in x number of
languages
but that's probably not very do-able, I admit.


Anyway, if you got this far, then thanks for reading.
As I said at the start, this is just a collection of things I think
(from my POV) could be done to improve the overall experience that is
Linux.

-- 
Tony Atkinson
Email: tatkinson321 at googlemail.com
PGP: F2B9184B
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From samtygier at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Sep  6 21:58:38 2010
From: samtygier at yahoo.co.uk (sam tygier)
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 22:58:38 +0100
Subject: An Open Letter to Ubuntu Developers -libraries
In-Reply-To: <1283789123.19211.10.camel@tony-desktop>
References: <1283789123.19211.10.camel@tony-desktop>
Message-ID: <i63o6f$l4b$1@dough.gmane.org>

On 06/09/10 17:05, Tony Atkinson wrote:
> 1) Applications, and their dependence on desktop environment libraries
>
> Currently certain application rely on specific desktop environment
> libraries to operate.
>
> As examples,
> if you install kate on stock Ubuntu 10.04, you pull in 108 packages,
> totalling 330Mb

just had a look in a maverick live cd (testdrive is amazing :-) )

sudo apt-get install kate
108 new packages
76.7MB download
272MB disk space

sudo apt-get install kate --no-install-recommends
85 new packages
65.2MB download
238MB disk space

which is slightly better.

i suspect if the KDE libs were split more finely it would mean lots more smaller packages, longer install times, longer upgrade times and more work for devs. so it would be a compromise.

sam




From tatkinson321 at googlemail.com  Tue Sep  7 06:17:54 2010
From: tatkinson321 at googlemail.com (Tony Atkinson)
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 07:17:54 +0100
Subject: An Open Letter to Ubuntu Developers -libraries
In-Reply-To: <i63o6f$l4b$1@dough.gmane.org>
References: <1283789123.19211.10.camel@tony-desktop>
	<i63o6f$l4b$1@dough.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1283840274.23894.7.camel@tony-desktop>

On Mon, 2010-09-06 at 22:58 +0100, sam tygier wrote:
> i suspect if the KDE libs were split more finely it would mean lots more smaller packages, longer install times, longer upgrade times and more work for devs. so it would be a compromise.

Would not an extendible Desktop environment framework be desirable,
though?
Obviously if anything like this were to be done, it'd be a multi-year
project, and need the co-operation of all major DE projects.

But a standard DE protocol that all environments adhere to would be of
huge benefit IMO,
with all but the most implementation-specific bits split out into
common, shared, cross-environment libraries

-- 
Tony Atkinson
Email: tatkinson321 at googlemail.com
PGP: F2B9184B
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From mpt at canonical.com  Tue Sep  7 10:28:49 2010
From: mpt at canonical.com (Matthew Paul Thomas)
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 11:28:49 +0100
Subject: Where can I find more docs/help on upstart?
In-Reply-To: <1283629575.3590.13.camel@psmith-laptop>
References: <1283629575.3590.13.camel@psmith-laptop>
Message-ID: <4C8613E1.60009@canonical.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Paul Smith wrote on 04/09/10 20:46:
>
> Esp. how it interacts with Ubuntu/Debian packaging.
>...
> So far my Google/etc. searching for admin-level details of upstart
> hasn't netted me very much.
>...

Have you found <http://upstart.ubuntu.com/wiki/>?

Cheers
- -- 
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/
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From ta.bu.shi.da.yu at gmail.com  Tue Sep  7 12:30:31 2010
From: ta.bu.shi.da.yu at gmail.com (TBSDY)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 22:30:31 +1000
Subject: An Open Letter to Ubuntu Developers -libraries
Message-ID: <AANLkTikJ3tYtF7_0qzWH+Fv4Vj-vxfNVXRGBK=L4p9Uk@mail.gmail.com>

I'm a bit curious - why would it be more work for devs? Obviously
splitting the packages
would take a bit of work, but with smaller and more finely grained
packages if you were
installing a package from the network and there was less to download
and install then
wouldn't install and upgrade times *decrease* rather than increase?

And if there were more packages, then wouldn't it be easier to update
and test a smaller
with more defined boundaries and functionality than a bigger and more sprawling
package?

Just curious...

Chris

> i suspect if the KDE libs were split more finely it would mean lots more smaller packages,
> longer install times, longer upgrade times and more work for devs. so it would be a
> compromise.
>
> sam



From paul at mad-scientist.net  Tue Sep  7 13:46:18 2010
From: paul at mad-scientist.net (Paul Smith)
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 09:46:18 -0400
Subject: Where can I find more docs/help on upstart?
In-Reply-To: <4C8613E1.60009@canonical.com>
References: <1283629575.3590.13.camel@psmith-laptop>
	<4C8613E1.60009@canonical.com>
Message-ID: <1283867178.3831.53.camel@homebase>

On Tue, 2010-09-07 at 11:28 +0100, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Paul Smith wrote on 04/09/10 20:46:
> >
> > Esp. how it interacts with Ubuntu/Debian packaging.
> >...
> > So far my Google/etc. searching for admin-level details of upstart
> > hasn't netted me very much.
> >...
> 
> Have you found <http://upstart.ubuntu.com/wiki/>?

Yes, thanks for that.  Most pages there are specifications for future
improvements.

The documentation about today's implementation doesn't give any hints
about how a service can be disabled, a la update-rc.d disable.

All I can find is the description of the init file.




From eapache at gmail.com  Tue Sep  7 14:11:13 2010
From: eapache at gmail.com (Evan)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 10:11:13 -0400
Subject: Where can I find more docs/help on upstart?
In-Reply-To: <1283867178.3831.53.camel@homebase>
References: <1283629575.3590.13.camel@psmith-laptop>
	<4C8613E1.60009@canonical.com> <1283867178.3831.53.camel@homebase>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik_C9_Z_B0oxSCKEv49_sxO0gExVeT4K1EWBqFb@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Paul Smith <paul at mad-scientist.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-09-07 at 11:28 +0100, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Paul Smith wrote on 04/09/10 20:46:
>> >
>> > Esp. how it interacts with Ubuntu/Debian packaging.
>> >...
>> > So far my Google/etc. searching for admin-level details of upstart
>> > hasn't netted me very much.
>> >...
>>
>> Have you found <http://upstart.ubuntu.com/wiki/>?
>
> Yes, thanks for that.  Most pages there are specifications for future
> improvements.
>
> The documentation about today's implementation doesn't give any hints
> about how a service can be disabled, a la update-rc.d disable.
>
> All I can find is the description of the init file.

I don't know if there is an 'official' way to disable a job, but the
two ways I have used in the past are:
1) Rename it so that it doesn't end with .conf. Upstart only watches
.conf files, so renaming it to .conf.disabled will kill it.
2) Add an unused event (like 'never') to the 'start on' field. As long
as nothing emits the 'never' event, then the job will never start.

1 seems more robust in that 2 can still be started by upstart
accidentally if something emits an event that it shouldn't. However, I
believe 2 plays more nicely with dpkg and how it manages configuration
files (upstart files are listed as debian conf files).

If you're still looking for a better answer, try asking on
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/upstart-devel

Evan



From DaveWalker at ubuntu.com  Fri Sep 10 09:57:05 2010
From: DaveWalker at ubuntu.com (Dave Walker)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 10:57:05 +0100
Subject: Overriding binaries in Debian Source 3 (quilt)
Message-ID: <4C8A00F1.20503@ubuntu.com>

Hi,

In Debian Source 3 (quilt), it seems the method of including binaries no
longer require uuencoding they simply need to be put in-place and the
path put in the file debian/source/include-binaries.  This is *great*.

Here is where the problem lies, if *overiding* a binary; rather than
adding a new one, there is a problem with dpkg (LP: #633015 & Closes
#594440).  This has been fixed in Maverick [0].

I assumed that leaving it a day or so, would mean that the buildd
environment updating to that dpkg version would mean that this issue is
resolved for Maverick.

However, this seems not to be the case.  When uploading to Maverick i'm
getting:
> Rejected:
> dpkg-source failed for eucalyptus_2.0~bzr1233-0ubuntu3.dsc [return: 29]
> [dpkg-source output:   dpkg-source: info: extracting eucalyptus in eucalyptus-2.0~bzr1233
>   dpkg-source: info: unpacking eucalyptus_2.0~bzr1233.orig.tar.gz
>   dpkg-source: info: unpacking eucalyptus_2.0~bzr1233-0ubuntu3.debian.tar.gz]

This is the same issue I was getting before dpkg was fixed in Maverick
(rejection before going near Maverick buildd).  This issue, i would
imagine, is going to become more frequent as deb src 3 becomes more
popular.  Normally, i wouldn't propose the fix for SRU to lucid - but it
seems that if Launchpad is running Lucid it may be a requirement - but
would this be enough to solve the issue?

Thanks.

[0] https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+source/dpkg/1.15.8.4ubuntu3

Kind Regards,
Dave Walker



From jordanhewi at gmail.com  Sat Sep 11 02:58:29 2010
From: jordanhewi at gmail.com (Jordan)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 19:58:29 -0700
Subject: Dump Google?
Message-ID: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com>

Dear Ubuntu Developers,

I'm not sure if I'm the first person to suggest this, but lately 
Google's reputation has diminished, especially with talk of them being 
Big Brother (yes, I know what server my email's on).  Why not drop 
Google and go for a more private search engine?

I know of a few underdogs such as Startpage and Yauba (I know of one 
more whose name I forgot...they have plans for an email system).  
Probably they would be happy to form an alliance with Ubuntu.

I'm thinking large-picture here.  Ubuntu's main attraction is it's 
security and privacy (not requiring users to register, for instance).  
With the technology news on Google and large search engines, I think we 
should jump on the band wagon to avoid Google. What do you say?

Thanks!



From beuno at ubuntu.com  Sat Sep 11 03:14:19 2010
From: beuno at ubuntu.com (Martin Albisetti)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 00:14:19 -0300
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimHuqasiDnqL9jxzV4x-yZaK5RBcdWjXB91RfWr@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Jordan <jordanhewi at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Ubuntu Developers,
>
> I'm not sure if I'm the first person to suggest this, but lately
> Google's reputation has diminished, especially with talk of them being
> Big Brother (yes, I know what server my email's on).  Why not drop
> Google and go for a more private search engine?
>
> I know of a few underdogs such as Startpage and Yauba (I know of one
> more whose name I forgot...they have plans for an email system).
> Probably they would be happy to form an alliance with Ubuntu.
>
> I'm thinking large-picture here.  Ubuntu's main attraction is it's
> security and privacy (not requiring users to register, for instance).
> With the technology news on Google and large search engines, I think we
> should jump on the band wagon to avoid Google. What do you say?

I don't think Ubuntu's main attraction is security and privacy.
It's important to many of us on this list, but hardly the reason we've
got millions of users.


-- 
Martin



From danny.piccirillo at ubuntu.com  Sat Sep 11 03:17:06 2010
From: danny.piccirillo at ubuntu.com (Danny Piccirillo)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 23:17:06 -0400
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimHuqasiDnqL9jxzV4x-yZaK5RBcdWjXB91RfWr@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimHuqasiDnqL9jxzV4x-yZaK5RBcdWjXB91RfWr@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikdPTP+QQRKxTfX9qxDVoWX1CTujH_mr4W6a3DX@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 23:14, Martin Albisetti <beuno at ubuntu.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Jordan <jordanhewi at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dear Ubuntu Developers,
>>
>> I'm not sure if I'm the first person to suggest this, but lately
>> Google's reputation has diminished, especially with talk of them being
>> Big Brother (yes, I know what server my email's on).  Why not drop
>> Google and go for a more private search engine?
>>
>> I know of a few underdogs such as Startpage and Yauba (I know of one
>> more whose name I forgot...they have plans for an email system).
>> Probably they would be happy to form an alliance with Ubuntu.
>>
>> I'm thinking large-picture here.  Ubuntu's main attraction is it's
>> security and privacy (not requiring users to register, for instance).
>> With the technology news on Google and large search engines, I think we
>> should jump on the band wagon to avoid Google. What do you say?
>
> I don't think Ubuntu's main attraction is security and privacy.
> It's important to many of us on this list, but hardly the reason we've
> got millions of users.
>
>

We could do *everything* for as many users as possible. Or we could
work for as many users as we can while still standing by our
philosophies of free software and freedom for our users.



From harry.ubuntu at harry.lu  Sat Sep 11 05:50:05 2010
From: harry.ubuntu at harry.lu (Harry Strongburg)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 05:50:05 +0000
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>

On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 07:58:29PM -0700, Jordan wrote:
> Why not drop Google and go for a more private search engine?

Yes, let's suggest for Ubuntu users use an obscure search engine, 
because they are worried someone at Google Inc may be knowing what kind 
of searches they do. Anyone who is concerned about Google would already 
use a different search engine. Ubuntu does not force you to use Google.

I highly doubt Google or "Big Brother" would care what you search. If 
"Big Brother" cared enough about you, they could just sniff all your 
traffic ISP-side. If you are searching for something illegal or 
incriminating, you're probably going to get in trouble, no matter if you 
use Google, or $some_random_foreign_search_engine. I am not implying 
that you are searching anything illegal, but it's pretty crazy to care 
about where your search queries go (especially when they are being sent 
in plaintext across the Internet).



From gregbair at gmail.com  Sat Sep 11 06:04:18 2010
From: gregbair at gmail.com (Greg)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 02:04:18 -0400
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com>
	<20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=Kue9+mw9vx43KwvJyX7CAk-WYnFNPWKi9WB1f@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:50 AM, Harry Strongburg <harry.ubuntu at harry.lu>wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 07:58:29PM -0700, Jordan wrote:
> > Why not drop Google and go for a more private search engine?
>
> Yes, let's suggest for Ubuntu users use an obscure search engine,
> because they are worried someone at Google Inc may be knowing what kind
> of searches they do. Anyone who is concerned about Google would already
> use a different search engine. Ubuntu does not force you to use Google.
>
> I highly doubt Google or "Big Brother" would care what you search. If
> "Big Brother" cared enough about you, they could just sniff all your
> traffic ISP-side. If you are searching for something illegal or
> incriminating, you're probably going to get in trouble, no matter if you
> use Google, or $some_random_foreign_search_engine. I am not implying
> that you are searching anything illegal, but it's pretty crazy to care
> about where your search queries go (especially when they are being sent
> in plaintext across the Internet).
>
> --
> Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list
> Ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
>

And, honestly, Google is probably one of the most open search (or just plain
internet) companies out there.  They're also one of the biggest users and
proponents for open source, too.

-- 
Greg Bair
gregbair at gmail.com
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From eixman at gmx.de  Sat Sep 11 14:49:03 2010
From: eixman at gmx.de (Florian Rehnisch)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 09:49:03 -0500
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100911144903.GA8462@theowned.net>

Well, I'm not much of an Ubuntu user.

But I've been hanging around on the internet since there wasn't no Google
at all.  Today, the average user expects to find a Google search
pane in their Firefox, Chromium, Konqueror -- so why dump it?

Is there a sensible alternative?

 flori



From holtzm at cox.net  Sat Sep 11 19:06:36 2010
From: holtzm at cox.net (Robert Holtzman)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 12:06:36 -0700
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com>
 <20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>
Message-ID: <20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net>

On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 05:50:05AM +0000, Harry Strongburg wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 07:58:29PM -0700, Jordan wrote:
> > Why not drop Google and go for a more private search engine?
> 
> Yes, let's suggest for Ubuntu users use an obscure search engine, 
> because they are worried someone at Google Inc may be knowing what kind 
> of searches they do. Anyone who is concerned about Google would already 
> use a different search engine. Ubuntu does not force you to use Google.
> 
> I highly doubt Google or "Big Brother" would care what you search. If 
> "Big Brother" cared enough about you, they could just sniff all your 
> traffic ISP-side. If you are searching for something illegal or 
> incriminating, you're probably going to get in trouble, no matter if you 
> use Google, or $some_random_foreign_search_engine. I am not implying 
> that you are searching anything illegal, but it's pretty crazy to care 
> about where your search queries go (especially when they are being sent 
> in plaintext across the Internet).

Google's archiving all searches isn't the only reason to dump it. If you
are willing to use a search engine that censors web sites at China's
whim go right ahead. Google puts their profit ahead of their stated
support of the free flow of information. Only the lazy or those who are
uninformed or lack principals use Google....and yes, I do use another
search engine.

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"
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From bgvaughan at gmail.com  Sat Sep 11 19:07:32 2010
From: bgvaughan at gmail.com (Brian Vaughan)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 12:07:32 -0700
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <20100911144903.GA8462@theowned.net>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com> <20100911144903.GA8462@theowned.net>
Message-ID: <4C8BD374.70403@gmail.com>

On 09/11/2010 07:49 AM, Florian Rehnisch wrote:
> Well, I'm not much of an Ubuntu user.
> 
> But I've been hanging around on the internet since there wasn't no Google
> at all.  Today, the average user expects to find a Google search
> pane in their Firefox, Chromium, Konqueror -- so why dump it?
> 
> Is there a sensible alternative?
> 
>  flori
> 
Google's not beyond criticism, but it's a good service, and one users
expect to have available.

It's trivially easy to change the default search engine in Firefox, and
not much more difficult to add additional search engines to the list.
Adding a few under-appreciated open source search engines to the list
seems like a reasonable proposal. Removing Google from the list does not.

Brian



From simon.ponder at gmail.com  Sat Sep 11 19:21:51 2010
From: simon.ponder at gmail.com (Simon Ponder)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:21:51 -0400
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com> <20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>
	<20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin35g2474v6pW5SkQstvM23jv8_Sp5m77tx5pWs@mail.gmail.com>

What other engine do you use, if you do not mind me asking?

Simon Ponder
> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 05:50:05AM +0000, Harry Strongburg wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 07:58:29PM -0700, Jordan wrote:
>> > Why not drop Google and go for a more private search engine?
>>
>> Yes, let's suggest for Ubuntu users use an obscure search engine,
>> because they are worried someone at Google Inc may be knowing what kind
>> of searches they do. Anyone who is concerned about Google would already
>> use a different search engine. Ubuntu does not force you to use Google.
>>
>> I highly doubt Google or "Big Brother" would care what you search. If
>> "Big Brother" cared enough about you, they could just sniff all your
>> traffic ISP-side. If you are searching for something illegal or
>> incriminating, you're probably going to get in trouble, no matter if you
>> use Google, or $some_random_foreign_search_engine. I am not implying
>> that you are searching anything illegal, but it's pretty crazy to care
>> about where your search queries go (especially when they are being sent
>> in plaintext across the Internet).
>
> Google's archiving all searches isn't the only reason to dump it. If you
> are willing to use a search engine that censors web sites at China's
> whim go right ahead. Google puts their profit ahead of their stated
> support of the free flow of information. Only the lazy or those who are
> uninformed or lack principals use Google....and yes, I do use another
> search engine.
>
> --
> Bob Holtzman
> Key ID: 8D549279
> "If you think you're getting free lunch,
> check the price of the beer"
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From bgvaughan at gmail.com  Sat Sep 11 19:23:51 2010
From: bgvaughan at gmail.com (Brian Vaughan)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 12:23:51 -0700
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com> <20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>
	<20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4C8BD747.5070506@gmail.com>

On 09/11/2010 12:06 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> Google's archiving all searches isn't the only reason to dump it. If you
> are willing to use a search engine that censors web sites at China's
> whim go right ahead. Google puts their profit ahead of their stated
> support of the free flow of information. Only the lazy or those who are
> uninformed or lack principals use Google....and yes, I do use another
> search engine.

That's a gross oversimplification of the PRC vs. Google issue. Take a
look at www.google.cn, and notice the redirect to www.google.com.hk,
just for starters. Try doing a few searches on political subjects, and
see what happens.

Brian



From jordanhewi at gmail.com  Sat Sep 11 19:19:45 2010
From: jordanhewi at gmail.com (Jordan)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 12:19:45 -0700
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimHuqasiDnqL9jxzV4x-yZaK5RBcdWjXB91RfWr@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimHuqasiDnqL9jxzV4x-yZaK5RBcdWjXB91RfWr@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C8BD651.7000100@gmail.com>

On 09/10/2010 08:14 PM, Martin Albisetti wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Jordan<jordanhewi at gmail.com>  wrote:
>    
>> Dear Ubuntu Developers,
>>
>> I'm not sure if I'm the first person to suggest this, but lately
>> Google's reputation has diminished, especially with talk of them being
>> Big Brother (yes, I know what server my email's on).  Why not drop
>> Google and go for a more private search engine?
>>
>> I know of a few underdogs such as Startpage and Yauba (I know of one
>> more whose name I forgot...they have plans for an email system).
>> Probably they would be happy to form an alliance with Ubuntu.
>>
>> I'm thinking large-picture here.  Ubuntu's main attraction is it's
>> security and privacy (not requiring users to register, for instance).
>> With the technology news on Google and large search engines, I think we
>> should jump on the band wagon to avoid Google. What do you say?
>>      
> I don't think Ubuntu's main attraction is security and privacy.
> It's important to many of us on this list, but hardly the reason we've
> got millions of users.
>
>
>    
Yikes, I didn't know there would be such a volatile reaction...it was 
just a suggestion.  True, it does seem like Google does the best they 
can and they haven't broken any laws (as far as we know).  However, 
Google does store user's information, such as I.P. addresses and the 
searches (yes, the I.P. address goes away after 8 months) and they 
transmit a crazy amount information back to the server (autocomplete for 
instance).

Now, as far as I know, the Ubuntu platform does not record or store your 
I.P. address except for services like Ubuntu One.  A search engine like 
Google, to me, doesn't fall in line with a privatized search engine like 
Google.

Or one thing we could do is still provide Google, but add a more private 
search engine to give the user's that option (I mentioned Startpage 
above).  I'm sure they would love to help improve open source.

Again, only a suggestion...I'm trying to make Ubuntu better as much as 
the next guy.  Sorry if I made anyone angry.



From mloftis at wgops.com  Sat Sep 11 22:17:06 2010
From: mloftis at wgops.com (Michael Loftis)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 16:17:06 -0600
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com> <20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>
	<20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net>
Message-ID: <8FD0AA7DDDBC8720B20705F3@[192.168.66.200]>



--On Saturday, September 11, 2010 12:06 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman 
<holtzm at cox.net> wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 05:50:05AM +0000, Harry Strongburg wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 07:58:29PM -0700, Jordan wrote:
>> > Why not drop Google and go for a more private search engine?
>>
>> Yes, let's suggest for Ubuntu users use an obscure search engine,
>> because they are worried someone at Google Inc may be knowing what kind
>> of searches they do. Anyone who is concerned about Google would already
>> use a different search engine. Ubuntu does not force you to use Google.
>>
>> I highly doubt Google or "Big Brother" would care what you search. If
>> "Big Brother" cared enough about you, they could just sniff all your
>> traffic ISP-side. If you are searching for something illegal or
>> incriminating, you're probably going to get in trouble, no matter if you
>> use Google, or $some_random_foreign_search_engine. I am not implying
>> that you are searching anything illegal, but it's pretty crazy to care
>> about where your search queries go (especially when they are being sent
>> in plaintext across the Internet).
>
> Google's archiving all searches isn't the only reason to dump it. If you
> are willing to use a search engine that censors web sites at China's
> whim go right ahead. Google puts their profit ahead of their stated
> support of the free flow of information. Only the lazy or those who are
> uninformed or lack principals use Google....and yes, I do use another
> search engine.

Wow you really don't pay any attention to reality do you?

Google did it's best NOT to bend to China.  But in order to maintain any 
"official" presence at all in China they had to make available a "Chinese 
censorship approved" version of Google search.  They did their best to 
legally maintain the full search view for China.  So now there's the 
limited Chinese censored site, but a simple click will get you the 
unfiltered version still in most cases.  In the cases that it doesn't there 
are well documented work arounds using proxies.

Quit criminalizing/blaming/whatever Google for the *CHINESE GOVERNMENTS* 
shortcomings and requirements.





From cjwatson at ubuntu.com  Sat Sep 11 22:30:47 2010
From: cjwatson at ubuntu.com (Colin Watson)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 23:30:47 +0100
Subject: Overriding binaries in Debian Source 3 (quilt)
In-Reply-To: <4C8A00F1.20503@ubuntu.com>
References: <4C8A00F1.20503@ubuntu.com>
Message-ID: <20100911223045.GA26431@riva.ucam.org>

On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 10:57:05AM +0100, Dave Walker wrote:
> I assumed that leaving it a day or so, would mean that the buildd
> environment updating to that dpkg version would mean that this issue is
> resolved for Maverick.
> 
> However, this seems not to be the case.  When uploading to Maverick i'm
> getting:
[...]
> This is the same issue I was getting before dpkg was fixed in Maverick
> (rejection before going near Maverick buildd).  This issue, i would
> imagine, is going to become more frequent as deb src 3 becomes more
> popular.  Normally, i wouldn't propose the fix for SRU to lucid - but it
> seems that if Launchpad is running Lucid it may be a requirement - but
> would this be enough to solve the issue?

There are two possible routes:

  * File an RT request with the patch to have it backported directly
    onto the Launchpad servers;

  * Get it into lucid-proposed, and file an RT request to have this
    installed (would be easier once it's in lucid-updates, but this can
    be leapfrogged if need be).

I think I'd recommend the latter so that we don't have too much stuff
sloshing around only in internal archives.  I'm happy to sign it off if
need be.

-- 
Colin Watson                                       [cjwatson at ubuntu.com]



From holtzm at cox.net  Sat Sep 11 22:33:08 2010
From: holtzm at cox.net (Robert Holtzman)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:33:08 -0700
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin35g2474v6pW5SkQstvM23jv8_Sp5m77tx5pWs@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com> <20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>
	<20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net>
	<AANLkTin35g2474v6pW5SkQstvM23jv8_Sp5m77tx5pWs@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100911223308.GA17232@cox.net>

On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 03:21:51PM -0400, Simon Ponder wrote:
> What other engine do you use, if you do not mind me asking?

           ..........snip..........

Icerocket, although it's been getting flaky on me as of late.

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"
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From cjwatson at ubuntu.com  Sat Sep 11 22:34:14 2010
From: cjwatson at ubuntu.com (Colin Watson)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 23:34:14 +0100
Subject: The new installer.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimr8V4gHPeq7D5fV+GmoNMvk21Ww47jQ5i9utiO@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimr8V4gHPeq7D5fV+GmoNMvk21Ww47jQ5i9utiO@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100911223414.GB26431@riva.ucam.org>

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 06:22:44PM +0530, Owais Lone wrote:
> I wonder what will the new installer install if I check the
> "install proprietary software.". Media codecs? Drivers?
> A lot of my friends have the broadcom wifi in their laptops, the driver is
> shipped with the Ubuntu CD. bcmwl-kernel-source.
> Would be great to have it installed automatically if the hardware is
> detected.

The effect of this option at the moment is to run 'jockey-text -a'
(which should indeed enable the Broadcom driver if necessary and
possible, I believe - though test this!), and to install
ubuntu-restricted-addons if you're using the GTK installer frontend or
kubuntu-restricted-extras if you're using the KDE installer frontend.

-- 
Colin Watson                                       [cjwatson at ubuntu.com]



From holtzm at cox.net  Sat Sep 11 22:39:45 2010
From: holtzm at cox.net (Robert Holtzman)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:39:45 -0700
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <4C8BD747.5070506@gmail.com>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com> <20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>
	<20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net> <4C8BD747.5070506@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100911223945.GB17232@cox.net>

On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 12:23:51PM -0700, Brian Vaughan wrote:
> On 09/11/2010 12:06 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> > Google's archiving all searches isn't the only reason to dump it. If you
> > are willing to use a search engine that censors web sites at China's
> > whim go right ahead. Google puts their profit ahead of their stated
> > support of the free flow of information. Only the lazy or those who are
> > uninformed or lack principals use Google....and yes, I do use another
> > search engine.
> 
> That's a gross oversimplification of the PRC vs. Google issue. Take a
> look at www.google.cn, and notice the redirect to www.google.com.hk,
> just for starters. Try doing a few searches on political subjects, and
> see what happens.

Looks like you're right except that I read some time ago that the PRC
made them stop allowing the redirect.

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"
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From holtzm at cox.net  Sat Sep 11 22:51:24 2010
From: holtzm at cox.net (Robert Holtzman)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:51:24 -0700
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <8FD0AA7DDDBC8720B20705F3@[192.168.66.200]>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com> <20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>
	<20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net>
	<8FD0AA7DDDBC8720B20705F3@[192.168.66.200]>
Message-ID: <20100911225124.GC17232@cox.net>

On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 04:17:06PM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote:
> 
> 
> --On Saturday, September 11, 2010 12:06 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman 
> <holtzm at cox.net> wrote:

          ..........snip..........

> >
> > Google's archiving all searches isn't the only reason to dump it. If you
> > are willing to use a search engine that censors web sites at China's
> > whim go right ahead. Google puts their profit ahead of their stated
> > support of the free flow of information. Only the lazy or those who are
> > uninformed or lack principals use Google....and yes, I do use another
> > search engine.
> 
> Wow you really don't pay any attention to reality do you?
> 
> Google did it's best NOT to bend to China.  But in order to maintain any 
> "official" presence at all in China they had to make available a "Chinese 
> censorship approved" version of Google search.  They did their best to 
> legally maintain the full search view for China.

Up until the time the PRC threatened not to renew their license. Then
they dropped their pants and bent over.

> So now there's the 
> limited Chinese censored site, but a simple click will get you the 
> unfiltered version still in most cases.

That came as a surprise to me. I remember reading that the PRC made them
eliminate the HK link.

> In the cases that it doesn't there 
> are well documented work arounds using proxies.
> 
> Quit criminalizing/blaming/whatever Google for the *CHINESE GOVERNMENTS* 
> shortcomings and requirements.

I didn't criminalize them but my statement stands. They are just as
unprincipled as any other avaricious corporation, their self serving
protestations not withstanding. 

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"
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From manishsinha.tech at gmail.com  Sat Sep 11 22:52:27 2010
From: manishsinha.tech at gmail.com (Manish Sinha)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 04:22:27 +0530
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <4C8BD651.7000100@gmail.com>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com>	<AANLkTimHuqasiDnqL9jxzV4x-yZaK5RBcdWjXB91RfWr@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C8BD651.7000100@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C8C082B.2020808@gmail.com>

On Sunday 12 September 2010 12:49 AM, Jordan wrote:
> Google does store user's information, such as I.P. addresses and the 
> searches (yes, the I.P. address goes away after 8 months) and they 
> transmit a crazy amount information back to the server (autocomplete for 
> instance).

Well IP address logging isn't something new. All websites do it. Even
blogs! If you get a hosting with cPanel, the IP address logger is
installed by default. You wont be even knowing that your hosting is
logging the IP of people who are coming to your domain

Secondly, Google makes money by collecting information. They dont charge
us. I would be really keen to know how they would make money without
collecting information and also giving away for free.

BTW I would surely object if google collects some private information.
IP address is not a private information nor is User-agent string


> Or one thing we could do is still provide Google, but add a more private 
> search engine to give the user's that option (I mentioned Startpage 
> above).  I'm sure they would love to help improve open source.

One option should be there. Google for day-to-day people who care more
about their search results and dont care about google's collection of
data. One private engine for purists. And a few more for more
flexibility. Everyone should have something for them in the list of
search engines/


> Again, only a suggestion...I'm trying to make Ubuntu better as much as 
> the next guy.  Sorry if I made anyone angry.

No. It didnt. Everyone is voicing their opinion. I don't think there is
something to get angry.

--
Manish




From beuno at ubuntu.com  Sat Sep 11 23:01:40 2010
From: beuno at ubuntu.com (Martin Albisetti)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 20:01:40 -0300
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <4C8BD651.7000100@gmail.com>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimHuqasiDnqL9jxzV4x-yZaK5RBcdWjXB91RfWr@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C8BD651.7000100@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin3K6-YBsaJT6b=Gqx7FG+zU+k6pxvTqb1hTNCm@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Jordan <jordanhewi at gmail.com> wrote:
> Again, only a suggestion...I'm trying to make Ubuntu better as much as
> the next guy.  Sorry if I made anyone angry.


Sorry my reply was so dry. I shouldn't reply to email on Friday evenings  :)
I appreciate spirit of your idea, and great things happen when
everything is questioned. I think that the main point is that as well
as freedom and privacy, we want to offer the best possible experience
to users. Sometimes that means we need to make trade-offs (like
providing closed-source drivers).
As it stands right now, Google is the best option for search and many
other services, they are very open source friendly and vastly more
open than other of the popular search engines.
If we found another search engine that could match Google's quality,
and it was more open, I'm sure we'd jump to it in a heartbeat.

The main message I wanted to convey is that we should be just as
mindful of people's experience as of privacy issues, which many many
people don't care (or know) about. It's easy to assume everyone else
cares about the things we do, but we're a small and funny group of
people, we shouldn't forget that!


cheers,

-- 
Martin



From mloftis at wgops.com  Sat Sep 11 23:32:31 2010
From: mloftis at wgops.com (Michael Loftis)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:32:31 -0600
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <20100911225124.GC17232@cox.net>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com>
	<20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>	<20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net>
	<8FD0AA7DDDBC8720B20705F3@[192.168.66.200]>
	<20100911225124.GC17232@cox.net>
Message-ID: <DAC009EF8D7FBCE4FCC668FB@[192.168.66.200]>



--On Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:51 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman 
<holtzm at cox.net> wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 04:17:06PM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote:
>>
>>
>> --On Saturday, September 11, 2010 12:06 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman
>> <holtzm at cox.net> wrote:
>
>           ..........snip..........
>
>> >
>> > Google's archiving all searches isn't the only reason to dump it. If
>> > you are willing to use a search engine that censors web sites at
>> > China's whim go right ahead. Google puts their profit ahead of their
>> > stated support of the free flow of information. Only the lazy or those
>> > who are uninformed or lack principals use Google....and yes, I do use
>> > another search engine.
>>
>> Wow you really don't pay any attention to reality do you?
>>
>> Google did it's best NOT to bend to China.  But in order to maintain any
>> "official" presence at all in China they had to make available a
>> "Chinese  censorship approved" version of Google search.  They did their
>> best to  legally maintain the full search view for China.
>
> Up until the time the PRC threatened not to renew their license. Then
> they dropped their pants and bent over.

Actually, no they didn't.  They said screw it, and left.  The remaining .cn 
is all in .com.hk, which has different laws.

>
>> So now there's the
>> limited Chinese censored site, but a simple click will get you the
>> unfiltered version still in most cases.
>
> That came as a surprise to me. I remember reading that the PRC made them
> eliminate the HK link.

They can't make them do much of anything to the .com.hk hosted 
infrastructure.  To the best of my knowledge they've basically left China 
over the PRC's censorship requirements.  They tried to make the PRC happy 
for a while, but when it became too onerous to do that, they said screw it 
and left.  Quite the opposite of whatever impression you've gotten.  They 
were, and still are, one of the loudest voices for freedom of 
(search/speech).

>
>> In the cases that it doesn't there
>> are well documented work arounds using proxies.
>>
>> Quit criminalizing/blaming/whatever Google for the *CHINESE GOVERNMENTS*
>> shortcomings and requirements.
>
> I didn't criminalize them but my statement stands. They are just as
> unprincipled as any other avaricious corporation, their self serving
> protestations not withstanding.

If they are so completely self serving then why have there been something 
like 700 published research papers from Google (Yahoo! Research also has a 
similar number) -- why has Google sponsored the summer of code for the last 
six years?  Why has google open sourced so many different technologies? 
Some of Google's papers and research are what helped to start the latest 
evolution in computing (they call it the cloud).

IBM has a LOT more publishing, but they've had decades more to work at it, 
and are a larger organization.  Universities have a lot more as well.  But 
amongst the bigger corporations, in so far as technology research and 
publishing (that is making findings publicly available), and helping MANY 
other open source projects along, Google is pretty generous.

Yes Google uses some of the information as part of recruiting (they're VERY 
clear about that) -- but the code is public domain, it could do that just 
as well without funding any of these projects.

Go take a look at the Google Summer of Code (SoC) information.  Ubuntu has 
benefitted from atleast this years SoC.  I'm not sure about prior years. 
For SoC 2010 Google awards $5500 per approved student/coder.  $500 goes to 
the sponsoring organization, and $5000 goes to the student.  For 2010 they 
funded about 1000 Student Developers.  That's $5M USD (up to, payment 
disbursement depends on a passing evaluation - done by the mentoring 
organization) -- The mentoring organizations basically submit a ranked list 
of possible projects/candidates.  Google awards N% of the total possible 
awards to each org based on the number of applicants (more applicants more 
projects and students get funded).  They did $5M last year too.  So Google 
gave *YOU* $5M in software development, because ALL of the code is open 
source.  Google doesn't even really decide who gets the money, they just 
put a framework in place for well known (open source) community 
organizations to say "we want to have some deserving Open Source projects 
receive some time and funding, and here's our list"

Like it or not, Google does a lot of non self serving (or atleast not 
entirely self serving) good out there.

Even if Google is self serving and unprincipled, they're certainly the 
amongst least so of any of their peers (Bing anyone?)

Also, I think that Google likely makes the VAST majority of its money from 
Adwords and Adwords related services, not from the data it collects (and 
uses in aggregate) for search.

I tried finding similar examples of philanthropy for Yahoo! and actually 
came up blank (using both Google and Yahoo! search honestly)

Microsoft has a pretty well known history of philanthropy, mostly directly 
from Bill Gate's Bill and Melinda Gates foundation.







From mloftis at wgops.com  Sat Sep 11 23:34:25 2010
From: mloftis at wgops.com (Michael Loftis)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:34:25 -0600
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <20100911223308.GA17232@cox.net>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com>
	<20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>	<20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net>
	<AANLkTin35g2474v6pW5SkQstvM23jv8_Sp5m77tx5pWs@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100911223308.GA17232@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3B18F4BAE9F73A221D75E0C2@[192.168.66.200]>



--On Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:33 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman 
<holtzm at cox.net> wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 03:21:51PM -0400, Simon Ponder wrote:
>> What other engine do you use, if you do not mind me asking?
>
>            ..........snip..........
>
> Icerocket, although it's been getting flaky on me as of late.

Uhm, news flash.  Icerocket's web search IS GOOGLE.  I think it's blog 
search is also google based, I'd have to dig, but, looks a bit like the 
Google news or groups search.



From harry.ubuntu at harry.lu  Sat Sep 11 23:43:03 2010
From: harry.ubuntu at harry.lu (Harry Strongburg)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 23:43:03 +0000
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com> <20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>
	<20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20100911234303.GA22662@harry.lu>

On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 12:06:36PM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> If you are willing to use a search engine that censors web sites at 
> China's whim go right ahead. Google puts their profit ahead of their 
> stated support of the free flow of information. Only the lazy or those 
> who are uninformed or lack principals use Google....and yes, I do use 
> another search engine.

Yeah, chosing to not use a search engine because they were legally 
forced by the government to change something... pretty inane in my 
opinion. I'd like to see you run a search engine that the Chinese 
government dislikes some results on it, and then go to them "nah Chinese 
government, it's okay, we aren't going to remove the results that offend 
you". Google redirects www.google.cn to www.google.com.hk, and results 
are uncensored there.



From mloftis at wgops.com  Sun Sep 12 00:04:35 2010
From: mloftis at wgops.com (Michael Loftis)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 18:04:35 -0600
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D621006BCB39CB9479C09A3B@[192.168.66.200]>



--On Friday, September 10, 2010 7:58 PM -0700 Jordan <jordanhewi at gmail.com> 
wrote:

> Dear Ubuntu Developers,
>
> I'm not sure if I'm the first person to suggest this, but lately
> Google's reputation has diminished, especially with talk of them being
> Big Brother (yes, I know what server my email's on).  Why not drop
> Google and go for a more private search engine?
>
> I know of a few underdogs such as Startpage and Yauba (I know of one
> more whose name I forgot...they have plans for an email system).
> Probably they would be happy to form an alliance with Ubuntu.
>
> I'm thinking large-picture here.  Ubuntu's main attraction is it's
> security and privacy (not requiring users to register, for instance).
> With the technology news on Google and large search engines, I think we
> should jump on the band wagon to avoid Google. What do you say?
>

I don't know that Ubuntu (or any particular Linux distro) main attraction 
is either of those.  But it certainly is choice.  Ubuntu could provide more 
choice out of the box.  Whatever choice Ubuntu makes it would also have to 
be endorsed by it's users.  The results would have to be good and timely, 
just picking a different search engine to "jump on the band wagon" is 
probably a bad idea.  The new engine, whatever chosen, would have to be 
fairly robust as well since Ubuntu represents a non-trivial share of users, 
and, Ubuntu users I'm sure also expect things to work well.  In fact I'd 
say choice, and working well, as well as having the latest updates are the 
three highest expectations of Ubuntu users as a whole.  Security and 
privacy also figure in the top five reasons as well I'm sure, and different 
users will have different priorities.



From holtzm at cox.net  Sun Sep 12 05:05:45 2010
From: holtzm at cox.net (Robert Holtzman)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 22:05:45 -0700
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <3B18F4BAE9F73A221D75E0C2@[192.168.66.200]>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com> <20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>
	<20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net>
	<AANLkTin35g2474v6pW5SkQstvM23jv8_Sp5m77tx5pWs@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100911223308.GA17232@cox.net>
	<3B18F4BAE9F73A221D75E0C2@[192.168.66.200]>
Message-ID: <20100912050545.GA2327@cox.net>

On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 05:34:25PM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote:
> 
> 
> --On Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:33 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman 
> <holtzm at cox.net> wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 03:21:51PM -0400, Simon Ponder wrote:
> >> What other engine do you use, if you do not mind me asking?
> >
> >            ..........snip..........
> >
> > Icerocket, although it's been getting flaky on me as of late.
> 
> Uhm, news flash.  Icerocket's web search IS GOOGLE.  I think it's blog 
> search is also google based, I'd have to dig, but, looks a bit like the 
> Google news or groups search.

I did a little digging. Running a search on "icerocket + google" turned
up several sites that contrasted icerocket and google. If there was
anything linking the two, I missed it. Can you supply a URL for your
conclusion?

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"
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From holtzm at cox.net  Sun Sep 12 05:37:34 2010
From: holtzm at cox.net (Robert Holtzman)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 22:37:34 -0700
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <DAC009EF8D7FBCE4FCC668FB@[192.168.66.200]>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com> <20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>
	<20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net>
	<8FD0AA7DDDBC8720B20705F3@[192.168.66.200]>
	<20100911225124.GC17232@cox.net>
	<DAC009EF8D7FBCE4FCC668FB@[192.168.66.200]>
Message-ID: <20100912053734.GB2327@cox.net>

On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 05:32:31PM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote:
> 
> 
> --On Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:51 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman 
> <holtzm at cox.net> wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 04:17:06PM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> --On Saturday, September 11, 2010 12:06 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman
> >> <holtzm at cox.net> wrote:
> >
> >           ..........snip..........
> >
> >> >
> >> > Google's archiving all searches isn't the only reason to dump it. If
> >> > you are willing to use a search engine that censors web sites at
> >> > China's whim go right ahead. Google puts their profit ahead of their
> >> > stated support of the free flow of information. Only the lazy or those
> >> > who are uninformed or lack principals use Google....and yes, I do use
> >> > another search engine.
> >>
> >> Wow you really don't pay any attention to reality do you?
> >>
> >> Google did it's best NOT to bend to China.  But in order to maintain any
> >> "official" presence at all in China they had to make available a
> >> "Chinese  censorship approved" version of Google search.  They did their
> >> best to  legally maintain the full search view for China.
> >
> > Up until the time the PRC threatened not to renew their license. Then
> > they dropped their pants and bent over.
> 
> Actually, no they didn't.  They said screw it, and left.  The remaining .cn 
> is all in .com.hk, which has different laws.

Running a search on "google + remains + china" turned up some sites (one
dated Thursday July 1, 2010) saying they are still there but pointing
out that the link to the HK site exists. Also, an Inquirer site says

"However, while not quite toeing the red party line, Schmidt continued,
"We continue to follow their laws, we continue to offer censored results
but at a reasonable short time from now we'll be making some changes
there."

He added, "We'd like to do that on somewhat different terms than we have
but we remain quite committed to being there." 

This is dated Fri Jan 22 2010 and I'm well aware that things could have
changed drastically since then.

Like I said, I stand by my statement.

> 
> >
> >> So now there's the
> >> limited Chinese censored site, but a simple click will get you the
> >> unfiltered version still in most cases.
> >
> > That came as a surprise to me. I remember reading that the PRC made them
> > eliminate the HK link.
> 
> They can't make them do much of anything to the .com.hk hosted 
> infrastructure.

No one said that they were forced to do anything to the HK
infrastructure. My understanding was that they were forced to remove the
link. 

> 
> If they are so completely self serving then why have there been something 
> like 700 published research papers from Google (Yahoo! Research also has a 
> similar number) -- why has Google sponsored the summer of code for the last 
> six years?  Why has google open sourced so many different technologies? 
> Some of Google's papers and research are what helped to start the latest 
> evolution in computing (they call it the cloud).

You're thinking in absolutes. Just because they are self serving in one
area doesn't mean they are in all others.

             ..........snip..........

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"
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From yaniv at aknin.name  Sun Sep 12 06:29:12 2010
From: yaniv at aknin.name (Yaniv Aknin)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 08:29:12 +0200
Subject: Defaults and behaviour of PC Speaker in future Ubuntu *Server*
	releases
Message-ID: <AANLkTim18ST6eUnin20bwJBazBxjmR8TpzrSN0pRDK8r@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Today I ran into the subject of causing my home server to beep using
/usr/bin/beep from package beep and using kernel module pcspkr. It took a
bit of work to get things going and I had to read a bit for it, and here's
the summary of what I think is the state of things:
(1) Sometime around Karmic, as per bugs #77010 and #366399, snd_pcsp pcspkr
were blacklisted.
(2) Due to unknown reasons, removing the blacklist is insufficient to return
PC speaker functionality, as can be seen at #398161 and especially #486154.
An ugly workaround exists and works (rmmod & modprobe pcspkr in rc.local).
(3) Some people want the PC speaker to return, as you can see at #512415.
(4) There's (probably just) negative karma against the speaker, as can
easily be seen here:
https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2010-January/006411.html

Which leads me to argue:
(1) While I agree PC Speaker is a relic of times long gone on the Desktop,
on the Server (especially home/SMB server) it's still relevant, especially
for things you really want to know about (mdadm failures, for instance), and
don't want to miss because some bonehead in the next room turned off the
speakers because the server was beeping and the email didn't reach you
because of a spam filter.
(2) Regardless of whether the PC speaker is good or bad, it shan't be
*difficult*. If a Desktop user wants the PC Speaker to work, it should be as
simple as removing a line in the blacklist, at worst (could be even easier).

Since this is not about the technical act of fixing the bug but about the
policy act of deciding what to do about it at all, I'm taking this here.

Cheers,
 - Yaniv
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From dotancohen at gmail.com  Sun Sep 12 07:36:50 2010
From: dotancohen at gmail.com (Dotan Cohen)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 09:36:50 +0200
Subject: Defaults and behaviour of PC Speaker in future Ubuntu *Server*
	releases
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim18ST6eUnin20bwJBazBxjmR8TpzrSN0pRDK8r@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim18ST6eUnin20bwJBazBxjmR8TpzrSN0pRDK8r@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimhiwMhNy-Q85D35pDL_ht4NYAJ4f28SG8YP3V-@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 08:29, Yaniv Aknin <yaniv at aknin.name> wrote:
> Hi,
> Today I ran into the subject of causing my home server to beep using
> /usr/bin/beep from package beep and using kernel module pcspkr. It took a
> bit of work to get things going and I had to read a bit for it, and here's
> the summary of what I think is the state of things:
> (1) Sometime around Karmic, as per bugs #77010 and #366399, snd_pcsp pcspkr
> were blacklisted.
> (2) Due to unknown reasons, removing the blacklist is insufficient to return
> PC speaker functionality, as can be seen at #398161 and especially #486154.
> An ugly workaround exists and works (rmmod & modprobe pcspkr in rc.local).
> (3) Some people want the PC speaker to return, as you can see at #512415.
> (4) There's (probably just) negative karma against the speaker, as can
> easily be seen
> here: https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2010-January/006411.html
> Which leads me to argue:
> (1) While I agree PC Speaker is a relic of times long gone on the Desktop,
> on the Server (especially home/SMB server) it's still relevant, especially
> for things you really want to know about (mdadm failures, for instance), and
> don't want to miss because some bonehead in the next room turned off the
> speakers because the server was beeping and the email didn't reach you
> because of a spam filter.
> (2) Regardless of whether the PC speaker is good or bad, it shan't be
> *difficult*. If a Desktop user wants the PC Speaker to work, it should be as
> simple as removing a line in the blacklist, at worst (could be even easier).
> Since this is not about the technical act of fixing the bug but about the
> policy act of deciding what to do about it at all, I'm taking this here.
> Cheers,
>  - Yaniv
>

In a server room beep can be used to find the machine you're looking
for! I reference this classic:
http://www.bash.org/?5273


-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://gibberish.co.il
http://what-is-what.com



From seven.steps at gmail.com  Sun Sep 12 07:56:19 2010
From: seven.steps at gmail.com (Daniel Chen)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 03:56:19 -0400
Subject: Defaults and behaviour of PC Speaker in future Ubuntu *Server*
	releases
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim18ST6eUnin20bwJBazBxjmR8TpzrSN0pRDK8r@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim18ST6eUnin20bwJBazBxjmR8TpzrSN0pRDK8r@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikJTb8EE_j==vZzRisvvab+EFWYCYwu1AuUcWXo@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 2:29 AM, Yaniv Aknin <yaniv at aknin.name> wrote:
> (2) Due to unknown reasons, removing the blacklist is insufficient to return
> PC speaker functionality, as can be seen at #398161 and especially #486154.

pcspkr doesn't drive all hardware, and the emergence of HDA (and
consequently the corresponding beep driver) has further complicated
that picture.  Fortunately, one can reenable the beep driver at
runtime via a sysfs echo.  Of course for non-HDA hardware the picture
is still as craptastic.

> Which leads me to argue:
> (2) Regardless of whether the PC speaker is good or bad, it shan't be
> *difficult*. If a Desktop user wants the PC Speaker to work, it should be as
> simple as removing a line in the blacklist, at worst (could be even easier).
> Since this is not about the technical act of fixing the bug but about the
> policy act of deciding what to do about it at all, I'm taking this here.

There are, of course, uses of the speaker and/or beep.  Changing the
default behavior belongs in a script, and whether the speaker and/or
beep being disabled is a bug is actually up for discussion - perhaps
not in this thread - but assuming it isn't a bug, what needs to be
added to the server seed to [run a script to] reenable it?

Best,
-Dan



From akkana at shallowsky.com  Sun Sep 12 16:15:30 2010
From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana Peck)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 09:15:30 -0700
Subject: Defaults and behaviour of PC Speaker in future Ubuntu *Server*
	releases
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikJTb8EE_j==vZzRisvvab+EFWYCYwu1AuUcWXo@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim18ST6eUnin20bwJBazBxjmR8TpzrSN0pRDK8r@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikJTb8EE_j==vZzRisvvab+EFWYCYwu1AuUcWXo@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100912161530.GB2023@shallowsky.com>

Daniel Chen writes:
> Fortunately, one can reenable the beep driver at
> runtime via a sysfs echo.  

Could you elaborate on that? I'm not having much luck googling,
just a few people saying they couldn't find a command that worked.

The lack of beep is definitely specific to Ubuntu kernels.
If I build my own kernel.org kernel, beeps work fine; but Ubuntu
kernels, even with the pcspkr module loaded, mostly don't beep.

I say "mostly" because occasionally, if I fiddle long enough and
load/unload/reload the pcspkr module, I can get a machine beeping
until the next reboot. I've never found a method that works repeatably.

If I compile the external "Fancy beeper" module at
http://www.carcosa.net/jason/software/beep/
it works fine, even for normal PC speaker beeps.

> There are, of course, uses of the speaker and/or beep.  Changing the
> default behavior belongs in a script, and whether the speaker and/or
> beep being disabled is a bug is actually up for discussion - perhaps
> not in this thread - but assuming it isn't a bug, what needs to be
> added to the server seed to [run a script to] reenable it?

I'd love to see a reliable/scriptable way of enabling pcspkr,
as I'm sure would the other people commenting in the various bug
reports. Bug 486154, especially, is full of suggestions on elaborate
workarounds that work for some people but not for others.

	...Akkana



From mloftis at wgops.com  Sun Sep 12 16:16:08 2010
From: mloftis at wgops.com (Michael Loftis)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 10:16:08 -0600
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <20100912050545.GA2327@cox.net>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com>
	<20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>	<20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net>
	<AANLkTin35g2474v6pW5SkQstvM23jv8_Sp5m77tx5pWs@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100911223308.GA17232@cox.net>	<3B18F4BAE9F73A221D75E0C2@[192.168.66.200]>
	<20100912050545.GA2327@cox.net>
Message-ID: <7EC9BDC1C3BC5B7CB703E5C5@[192.168.66.200]>



--On Saturday, September 11, 2010 10:05 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman 
<holtzm at cox.net> wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 05:34:25PM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote:
>>
>>
>> --On Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:33 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman
>> <holtzm at cox.net> wrote:
>>
>> > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 03:21:51PM -0400, Simon Ponder wrote:
>> >> What other engine do you use, if you do not mind me asking?
>> >
>> >            ..........snip..........
>> >
>> > Icerocket, although it's been getting flaky on me as of late.
>>
>> Uhm, news flash.  Icerocket's web search IS GOOGLE.  I think it's blog
>> search is also google based, I'd have to dig, but, looks a bit like the
>> Google news or groups search.
>
> I did a little digging. Running a search on "icerocket + google" turned
> up several sites that contrasted icerocket and google. If there was
> anything linking the two, I missed it. Can you supply a URL for your
> conclusion?
>

The fact that their web search result pages are nearly identical to 
Google's (minus the upper header actually), and results are identical to 
Google.  Just do some comparison searches.  They find the same numbers of 
pages, rank them the same, and are using the same extracts/excerpts.

I really highly doubt they've enough spidering capacity to replicate 
Google's results so closely.  The fact that their nothing found/error page 
also contains Google's nothing found/error language verbatim points to this 
as well.

As for their blog search, it also looks like the Google Blog Search API 
Data, with some form of additional filtering, exactly what they're doing 
there I'm not sure.

Icerocket is very clearly someone whose written a UI for Google searches, 
there's nothing there to suggest otherwise.  In web searches especially 
they're *identical*.  The likelihood of two independent search databases of 
the web producing the EXACTLY same results for the first 15 for every 
single search I tested (I tried 6 of them, 'dog pile', 'google 
philanthropy', 'rock hunting', 'terranova space suit', 'feel good music', 
'hockey pucks for sale' -- just random keyword strings really except for 
the google philanthropy one).  And at a glance it also appears everything 
past the top 15 was identical too.  Empirically, Icerocket web search is 
just google search API.  If anyone here is self serving it's Icerocket.

Try matching ANY other search engine against Google, (or against any 
other!) You're not going to get the same results.  Even if they use the 
same algorithms, differing databases will produce different results.  The 
only way to replicate the breadth and depth of Google's results is to have 
the many many many TB of search index capability that Google has.

I'd be really surprised if their blog search isn't Google, the data that's 
there is what is represented in the API's.  That one I haven't been able to 
figure out what they're doing to get those results, so they're offering 
something of value there.  It certainly produces better results than 
blogsearch.google.com -- but maybe that's not the data stream that 
icerocket is using either.

The simple fact that they're blatantly lifting Google web search though 
makes it pretty likely their blog search is based off Google data.  The 
twitter search looks to me to be a wrapper around Twitter's own Search API 
as well, but I didn't spend any time looking into that.

Their 'advanced search' syntax, is also identical to Google's (that's not 
saying much honestly, but it's one additional little thing) -- though 
they're filtering out at least some of the specialty search prefixes like 
links.







From seven.steps at gmail.com  Sun Sep 12 20:35:28 2010
From: seven.steps at gmail.com (Daniel Chen)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:35:28 -0400
Subject: Defaults and behaviour of PC Speaker in future Ubuntu *Server*
	releases
In-Reply-To: <20100912161530.GB2023@shallowsky.com>
References: <AANLkTim18ST6eUnin20bwJBazBxjmR8TpzrSN0pRDK8r@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikJTb8EE_j==vZzRisvvab+EFWYCYwu1AuUcWXo@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100912161530.GB2023@shallowsky.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinbRHSXzPE6FyWwv5w6181ZH9+0RsNWxn7oPG1t@mail.gmail.com>

Daniel Chen writes:
>> Fortunately, one can reenable the beep driver at
>> runtime via a sysfs echo.

On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Akkana Peck <akkana at shallowsky.com> wrote:
> Could you elaborate on that? I'm not having much luck googling,
> just a few people saying they couldn't find a command that worked.

Noting that my above statement refers specifically to HDA beep, please
see bug 582350 as pertains to Maverick.  The sysfs bit is
/sys/module/snd_hda_intel/parameters/beep_mode.

Also note that the entire beep maze is both hardware- and
configuration-dependent.


> The lack of beep is definitely specific to Ubuntu kernels.

I haven't done due diligence regarding inspecting kernel configs for
other popular modern desktop distros, so I don't know offhand if their
values match Ubuntu's.  I also don't know if others blacklist
identical kernel modules.


> If I build my own kernel.org kernel, beeps work fine; but Ubuntu
> kernels, even with the pcspkr module loaded, mostly don't beep.

Are you using an identical kernel configuration?  What are the
remaining details of the test environment?

I have a feeling this discussion is beyond the scope of this thread,
so please feel free to continue it on the kernel-team or
ubuntu-audio-dev mailing list.


> I'd love to see a reliable/scriptable way of enabling pcspkr,
> as I'm sure would the other people commenting in the various bug
> reports. Bug 486154, especially, is full of suggestions on elaborate
> workarounds that work for some people but not for others.

Right, this is due to hardware and configuration maze (hence the
effort to unify it in 2.6.35+).

Best,
-Dan



From holtzm at cox.net  Sun Sep 12 21:01:15 2010
From: holtzm at cox.net (Robert Holtzman)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 14:01:15 -0700
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <7EC9BDC1C3BC5B7CB703E5C5@[192.168.66.200]>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com> <20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>
	<20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net>
	<AANLkTin35g2474v6pW5SkQstvM23jv8_Sp5m77tx5pWs@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100911223308.GA17232@cox.net>
	<3B18F4BAE9F73A221D75E0C2@[192.168.66.200]>
	<20100912050545.GA2327@cox.net>
	<7EC9BDC1C3BC5B7CB703E5C5@[192.168.66.200]>
Message-ID: <20100912210114.GC2226@cox.net>

On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 10:16:08AM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote:
> 
> 
> --On Saturday, September 11, 2010 10:05 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman 
> <holtzm at cox.net> wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 05:34:25PM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> --On Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:33 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman
> >> <holtzm at cox.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 03:21:51PM -0400, Simon Ponder wrote:
> >> >> What other engine do you use, if you do not mind me asking?
> >> >
> >> >            ..........snip..........
> >> >
> >> > Icerocket, although it's been getting flaky on me as of late.
> >>
> >> Uhm, news flash.  Icerocket's web search IS GOOGLE.  I think it's blog
> >> search is also google based, I'd have to dig, but, looks a bit like the
> >> Google news or groups search.
> >
> > I did a little digging. Running a search on "icerocket + google" turned
> > up several sites that contrasted icerocket and google. If there was
> > anything linking the two, I missed it. Can you supply a URL for your
> > conclusion?
> >
> 
> The fact that their web search result pages are nearly identical to 
> Google's (minus the upper header actually), and results are identical to 
> Google.  Just do some comparison searches.  They find the same numbers of 
> pages, rank them the same, and are using the same extracts/excerpts.

You could be right but in the absence of documentation what you say is
conjecture (although logical) and I remain skeptical. I'll still stand by my original
statement.

                ...........snip...........

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"
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From kinggoddard at gmail.com  Mon Sep 13 00:34:05 2010
From: kinggoddard at gmail.com (Ryein)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 17:34:05 -0700
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <20100912210114.GC2226@cox.net>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com> <20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>
	<20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net>
	<AANLkTin35g2474v6pW5SkQstvM23jv8_Sp5m77tx5pWs@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100911223308.GA17232@cox.net>
	<3B18F4BAE9F73A221D75E0C2@192.168.66.200>
	<20100912050545.GA2327@cox.net>
	<7EC9BDC1C3BC5B7CB703E5C5@192.168.66.200>
	<20100912210114.GC2226@cox.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikW1F=26xAzb7awtORZ_Xcj5TuDegL8+TGc0rwm@mail.gmail.com>

Doesn't connical and google have some agreement or certain projects?

On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Robert Holtzman <holtzm at cox.net> wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 10:16:08AM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote:
> >
> >
> > --On Saturday, September 11, 2010 10:05 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman
> > <holtzm at cox.net> wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 05:34:25PM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --On Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:33 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman
> > >> <holtzm at cox.net> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 03:21:51PM -0400, Simon Ponder wrote:
> > >> >> What other engine do you use, if you do not mind me asking?
> > >> >
> > >> >            ..........snip..........
> > >> >
> > >> > Icerocket, although it's been getting flaky on me as of late.
> > >>
> > >> Uhm, news flash.  Icerocket's web search IS GOOGLE.  I think it's blog
> > >> search is also google based, I'd have to dig, but, looks a bit like
> the
> > >> Google news or groups search.
> > >
> > > I did a little digging. Running a search on "icerocket + google" turned
> > > up several sites that contrasted icerocket and google. If there was
> > > anything linking the two, I missed it. Can you supply a URL for your
> > > conclusion?
> > >
> >
> > The fact that their web search result pages are nearly identical to
> > Google's (minus the upper header actually), and results are identical to
> > Google.  Just do some comparison searches.  They find the same numbers of
> > pages, rank them the same, and are using the same extracts/excerpts.
>
> You could be right but in the absence of documentation what you say is
> conjecture (although logical) and I remain skeptical. I'll still stand by
> my original
> statement.
>
>                ...........snip...........
>
> --
> Bob Holtzman
> Key ID: 8D549279
> "If you think you're getting free lunch,
>  check the price of the beer"
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkyNP5oACgkQv5BYD41UknmMmACfRG0gmxJQzLkhGq5MoGIDeZGe
> yJsAoMxkAGV3gGKnwXFIC2JDayqDmWWe
> =AagZ
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> --
> Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list
> Ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
>
>
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From atheoi at gmail.com  Mon Sep 13 00:45:57 2010
From: atheoi at gmail.com (Conrad Knauer)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 18:45:57 -0600
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <20100912053734.GB2327@cox.net>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com> <20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>
	<20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net>
	<8FD0AA7DDDBC8720B20705F3@192.168.66.200>
	<20100911225124.GC17232@cox.net>
	<DAC009EF8D7FBCE4FCC668FB@192.168.66.200>
	<20100912053734.GB2327@cox.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimzHXiULXbcV3MtUf9Qkp7bw7T0V-zUkyYeoa+x@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:37 PM, Robert Holtzman <holtzm at cox.net> wrote:

>> >> > Google's archiving all searches isn't the only reason to dump it. If
>> >> > you are willing to use a search engine that censors web sites at
>> >> > China's whim go right ahead. Google puts their profit ahead of their
>> >> > stated support of the free flow of information. Only the lazy or those
>> >> > who are uninformed or lack principals use Google....and yes, I do use
>> >> > another search engine.
>> >>
>> >> Wow you really don't pay any attention to reality do you?
>> >>
>> >> Google did it's best NOT to bend to China.  But in order to maintain any
>> >> "official" presence at all in China they had to make available a
>> >> "Chinese  censorship approved" version of Google search.  They did their
>> >> best to  legally maintain the full search view for China.
>> >
>> > Up until the time the PRC threatened not to renew their license. Then
>> > they dropped their pants and bent over.
>>
>> Actually, no they didn't.  They said screw it, and left.  The remaining .cn
>> is all in .com.hk, which has different laws.
>
> Running a search on "google + remains + china" turned up some sites (one
> dated Thursday July 1, 2010) saying they are still there but pointing
> out that the link to the HK site exists. Also, an Inquirer site says
>
> "However, while not quite toeing the red party line, Schmidt continued,
> "We continue to follow their laws, we continue to offer censored results
> but at a reasonable short time from now we'll be making some changes
> there."
>
> He added, "We'd like to do that on somewhat different terms than we have
> but we remain quite committed to being there."
>
> This is dated Fri Jan 22 2010 and I'm well aware that things could have
> changed drastically since then.
>
> Like I said, I stand by my statement.

Please see http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/world/europe/12raids.html?_r=2&partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=all
from today which describes a well-known evil corporation
(you-know-who) and makes mention of Google in China:

"In China, Microsoft has complied with censorship rules in operating
its Web search service, preventing Chinese users from easily accessing
banned information. Its archrival Google stopped following censorship
regulations there, and scaled back its operations inside China’s
Internet firewall."

You might also find this interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_flower_tribute

CK



From dantrevino at gmail.com  Mon Sep 13 04:09:51 2010
From: dantrevino at gmail.com (Dan Trevino)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 00:09:51 -0400
Subject: Launchpad Maps
Message-ID: <AANLkTimY7j6HOEGPzwB+eTqVV_N_ZC2Fh+7zS5O=Vmc1@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone know when the team maps left launchpad?

https://launchpad.net/~launchpad/+map

Dan
---
Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Open Standards!



From bilalakhtar at ubuntu.com  Mon Sep 13 06:24:44 2010
From: bilalakhtar at ubuntu.com (Bilal Akhtar)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 09:24:44 +0300
Subject: Launchpad Maps
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimY7j6HOEGPzwB+eTqVV_N_ZC2Fh+7zS5O=Vmc1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimY7j6HOEGPzwB+eTqVV_N_ZC2Fh+7zS5O=Vmc1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1284359084.2341.1.camel@bilal-laptop>

On Mon, 2010-09-13 at 00:09 -0400, Dan Trevino wrote:
> Does anyone know when the team maps left launchpad?
> 
> https://launchpad.net/~launchpad/+map
> 

https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-registry/+bug/624981

> Dan
> ---
> Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Open Standards!
> 

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From holtzm at cox.net  Mon Sep 13 08:20:04 2010
From: holtzm at cox.net (Robert Holtzman)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 01:20:04 -0700
Subject: Dump Google?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimzHXiULXbcV3MtUf9Qkp7bw7T0V-zUkyYeoa+x@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C8AF055.9040801@gmail.com> <20100911055004.GA11985@harry.lu>
	<20100911190635.GA2663@cox.net>
	<8FD0AA7DDDBC8720B20705F3@192.168.66.200>
	<20100911225124.GC17232@cox.net>
	<DAC009EF8D7FBCE4FCC668FB@192.168.66.200>
	<20100912053734.GB2327@cox.net>
	<AANLkTimzHXiULXbcV3MtUf9Qkp7bw7T0V-zUkyYeoa+x@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100913082004.GC2621@cox.net>

On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 06:45:57PM -0600, Conrad Knauer wrote:
> 
> Please see http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/world/europe/12raids.html?_r=2&partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=all
> from today which describes a well-known evil corporation
> (you-know-who) and makes mention of Google in China:
> 
> "In China, Microsoft has complied with censorship rules in operating
> its Web search service, preventing Chinese users from easily accessing
> banned information. Its archrival Google stopped following censorship
> regulations there, and scaled back its operations inside China’s
> Internet firewall."

Looks like the situation has changed since I last read about it. I 
wonder how much public outrage and bad publicity had to do with the 
apparent change of heart. My opinion of their ethics stands.

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"
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From wzssyqa at ubuntu.com  Mon Sep 13 17:37:17 2010
From: wzssyqa at ubuntu.com (YunQiang Su)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 01:37:17 +0800
Subject: Backport an non-exist package to lucid main
Message-ID: <AANLkTikKG-3M6XPJ9JmXp5aNN=JLNV-8XLXn7KrHF93p@mail.gmail.com>

Now I am working on backport ibus 1.3 to lucid.

There is a big improvement in ibus 1.3 than 1.2, so for lucid, as a
LTS, it needs better user experience.

But now, I am facing a problem:

IBus-PinYin, which is a main component of ibus for input Chinese, both
hant and hans, depends opencc.

opencc now is in 10.10's main, but it is not in lucid.

Can I backport it?
or need to do something else?


Best Regards.

-- 
YunQiang Su



From ddasilva at umd.edu  Wed Sep 15 14:00:43 2010
From: ddasilva at umd.edu (Daniel da Silva)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 10:00:43 -0400
Subject: Newcomer interested in taking on project to add colors to
	apt-get/apt-cache
Message-ID: <AANLkTikHixsH_c9t=FGryBDNzotE3_DL5zkG33WYtMBF@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I'm a newcomer to the Ubuntu Development community, but long time linux
user. I am interested in starting a patch to add colored output to the
apt-get/apt-cache (are there any other apt-*s?)[see bug link in footnote].
Gentoo, for example, does this very nicely with their emerge tool. I was
wondering if anyone could answer some questions:

1) Should patches for apt be submitted to Ubuntu or Debian?
2) Are there any *must read* docs you suggest I read before I get started?
3) How likely do you think it is that this patch would get accepted?


Thanks,

Daniel

[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/debian/+source/apt/+bug/262227
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From mloftis at wgops.com  Wed Sep 15 15:56:07 2010
From: mloftis at wgops.com (Michael Loftis)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 09:56:07 -0600
Subject: Newcomer interested in taking on project to add colors to
	apt-get/apt-cache
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikHixsH_c9t=FGryBDNzotE3_DL5zkG33WYtMBF@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikHixsH_c9t=FGryBDNzotE3_DL5zkG33WYtMBF@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EFF8B489E7FA76B86737B841@[192.168.66.200]>



--On Wednesday, September 15, 2010 10:00 AM -0400 Daniel da Silva 
<ddasilva at umd.edu> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm a newcomer to the Ubuntu Development community, but long time linux
> user. I am interested in starting a patch to add colored output to the
> apt-get/apt-cache (are there any other apt-*s?)[see bug link in
> footnote]. Gentoo, for example, does this very nicely with their emerge
> tool. I was wondering if anyone could answer some questions:
>
> 1) Should patches for apt be submitted to Ubuntu or Debian?
> 2) Are there any *must read* docs you suggest I read before I get started?
> 3) How likely do you think it is that this patch would get accepted?

I think you'd have better luck getting those types patches integrated into 
aptitude rather than apt (assuming aptitude doesn't already have this) -- 
apt-* are, IMO, meant for lower level packaging interaction and so don't 
want/need for frills like this.  aptitude is really meant as a completely 
user facing interface to apt-* and friends and is probably far more 
appropriate a place for these sorts of patches. 
<http://packages.qa.debian.org/a/aptitude.html> is the Debian source 
information for the package.

>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Daniel
>
> [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/debian/+source/apt/+bug/262227
>







From lists at janc.be  Thu Sep 16 12:29:13 2010
From: lists at janc.be (Jan Claeys)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 14:29:13 +0200
Subject: An Open Letter to Ubuntu Developers
In-Reply-To: <1283789123.19211.10.camel@tony-desktop>
References: <1283789123.19211.10.camel@tony-desktop>
Message-ID: <1284640153.25392.1644.camel@saeko>

Op maandag 06-09-2010 om 17:05 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Tony
Atkinson:
> 3) Link GUI & CLI operations using common syntax
> 
> I'm in two minds about including this,
> as this is not a usual use-case for the majority of people
> but I'd love for all GUI applications to be invokable via the CLI, using
> some standard syntax
> I've found that often times I'll use a GUI app to perform some set of
> operations, then I'm wanting to perform the same operations across
> multiple files, and currently I'm forced to find alternative apps of
> automating said operations
> 
> Eg. I've recently needed to perform the following operations on several
> hundred photos
> in order for them to blend in with a user-configurable webpage colour
> scheme
> (Making an image whose background gradually fades to transparent at the
> image boundaries)
> - Open image in the Gimp
> - add a transparent layer
> - Select all
> - Shrink selection by 5px
> - Feather selection by 5px
> - Invert selection
> - Clear selection (to transparent)
> - Save as a PNG

> Surely it should be possible to automate such GUI operations using a CLI
> interface
> and if you've got experience with a specific desktop app, I think it
> would be hugely beneficial if you could keep using the same program both
> on the GUI and on the CLI
> 
>         for IMG_FILE in $IMG_FILES; do
>                 gimp-cli
>         --process="layer-add:transparent;select-all;select-shrink:5px;select-feather:5px;select-invert;select-clear;file-save:${IMG_FILE}.png" $IMG_FILE
>         done

Your proposal must have been read and implemented by somebody with a
time machine, as The GIMP's batch mode has been around for years.  ;-)


I think doing that in a general way with all GUI applications would mean
that you would have to add support for a common scripting engine to all
applications, somewhat like AppleScript on Mac OS, or ActiveX scripting
in Windows.  Some applications might need major changes to make that
possible, and in some cases it would significantly bloat them or
(partially) duplicate existing scripting functionality (that can't be
removed for backwards compatibility or because it has more/other
features).

The first thing to do if you want to see this happening would be to get
all desktop environments to agree on a common system for this (probably
through FreeDesktop.org).  Good luck with that...


-- 
Jan Claeys




From fergal at esatclear.ie  Thu Sep 16 14:19:46 2010
From: fergal at esatclear.ie (Fergal Daly)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 15:19:46 +0100
Subject: An Open Letter to Ubuntu Developers
In-Reply-To: <1284640153.25392.1644.camel@saeko>
References: <1283789123.19211.10.camel@tony-desktop>
	<1284640153.25392.1644.camel@saeko>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=jamcn__SAOVV8MUSs8ZX+VZ+1Yy7vH8k5y0bn@mail.gmail.com>

On 16 September 2010 13:29, Jan Claeys <lists at janc.be> wrote:
> Op maandag 06-09-2010 om 17:05 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Tony
> Atkinson:
>> 3) Link GUI & CLI operations using common syntax
>>
>> I'm in two minds about including this,
>> as this is not a usual use-case for the majority of people
>> but I'd love for all GUI applications to be invokable via the CLI, using
>> some standard syntax
>> I've found that often times I'll use a GUI app to perform some set of
>> operations, then I'm wanting to perform the same operations across
>> multiple files, and currently I'm forced to find alternative apps of
>> automating said operations
>>
>> Eg. I've recently needed to perform the following operations on several
>> hundred photos
>> in order for them to blend in with a user-configurable webpage colour
>> scheme
>> (Making an image whose background gradually fades to transparent at the
>> image boundaries)
>> - Open image in the Gimp
>> - add a transparent layer
>> - Select all
>> - Shrink selection by 5px
>> - Feather selection by 5px
>> - Invert selection
>> - Clear selection (to transparent)
>> - Save as a PNG
>
>> Surely it should be possible to automate such GUI operations using a CLI
>> interface
>> and if you've got experience with a specific desktop app, I think it
>> would be hugely beneficial if you could keep using the same program both
>> on the GUI and on the CLI
>>
>>         for IMG_FILE in $IMG_FILES; do
>>                 gimp-cli
>>         --process="layer-add:transparent;select-all;select-shrink:5px;select-feather:5px;select-invert;select-clear;file-save:${IMG_FILE}.png" $IMG_FILE
>>         done
>
> Your proposal must have been read and implemented by somebody with a
> time machine, as The GIMP's batch mode has been around for years.  ;-)
>
>
> I think doing that in a general way with all GUI applications would mean
> that you would have to add support for a common scripting engine to all
> applications, somewhat like AppleScript on Mac OS, or ActiveX scripting
> in Windows.  Some applications might need major changes to make that
> possible, and in some cases it would significantly bloat them or
> (partially) duplicate existing scripting functionality (that can't be
> removed for backwards compatibility or because it has more/other
> features).

The Amiga had ARexx (Rexx itself came from IBM mainframes). Every
"real" Amiga application exposed its functionality via its ARexx port
which was basically just a way of delivering strings and get strings
back in reply.

There is no need to build the scripting engine into every application.
ARexx was just a scripting language with a built-in ability to
communicate over ARexx ports. I wrote perl ARexx bindings so that I
wouldn't have to learn yet another scripting language.

These days, using JSON or something like that instead of ad-hoc text
commands would probably be best.

Being able to script across almost all of your (GUI) apps let people
do great things with ARexx.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARexx


All that said, don't DCop for KDE and dbus for gnome provide the
basics of this (when the app has bothered to implement them)?

F

> The first thing to do if you want to see this happening would be to get
> all desktop environments to agree on a common system for this (probably
> through FreeDesktop.org).  Good luck with that...
>
>
> --
> Jan Claeys
>
>
> --
> Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list
> Ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
>



From roderick.greening at gmail.com  Thu Sep 16 14:29:09 2010
From: roderick.greening at gmail.com (Roderick B. Greening)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 11:59:09 -0230
Subject: An Open Letter to Ubuntu Developers
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=jamcn__SAOVV8MUSs8ZX+VZ+1Yy7vH8k5y0bn@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1283789123.19211.10.camel@tony-desktop>
	<1284640153.25392.1644.camel@saeko>
	<AANLkTi=jamcn__SAOVV8MUSs8ZX+VZ+1Yy7vH8k5y0bn@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201009161159.22503.roderick.greening@gmail.com>

> On 16 September 2010 13:29, Jan Claeys <lists at janc.be> wrote:
> > Op maandag 06-09-2010 om 17:05 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Tony
> > 
> > Atkinson:
> >> 3) Link GUI & CLI operations using common syntax
> >> 
> >> I'm in two minds about including this,
> >> as this is not a usual use-case for the majority of people
> >> but I'd love for all GUI applications to be invokable via the CLI, using
> >> some standard syntax
> >> I've found that often times I'll use a GUI app to perform some set of
> >> operations, then I'm wanting to perform the same operations across
> >> multiple files, and currently I'm forced to find alternative apps of
> >> automating said operations
> >> 
> >> Eg. I've recently needed to perform the following operations on several
> >> hundred photos
> >> in order for them to blend in with a user-configurable webpage colour
> >> scheme
> >> (Making an image whose background gradually fades to transparent at the
> >> image boundaries)
> >> - Open image in the Gimp
> >> - add a transparent layer
> >> - Select all
> >> - Shrink selection by 5px
> >> - Feather selection by 5px
> >> - Invert selection
> >> - Clear selection (to transparent)
> >> - Save as a PNG
> >> 
> >> Surely it should be possible to automate such GUI operations using a CLI
> >> interface
> >> and if you've got experience with a specific desktop app, I think it
> >> would be hugely beneficial if you could keep using the same program both
> >> on the GUI and on the CLI
> >> 
> >>         for IMG_FILE in $IMG_FILES; do
> >>                 gimp-cli
> >>        
> >> --process="layer-add:transparent;select-all;select-shrink:5px;select-fe
> >> ather:5px;select-invert;select-clear;file-save:${IMG_FILE}.png"
> >> $IMG_FILE done
> > 
> > Your proposal must have been read and implemented by somebody with a
> > time machine, as The GIMP's batch mode has been around for years.  ;-)
> > 
> > 
> > I think doing that in a general way with all GUI applications would mean
> > that you would have to add support for a common scripting engine to all
> > applications, somewhat like AppleScript on Mac OS, or ActiveX scripting
> > in Windows.  Some applications might need major changes to make that
> > possible, and in some cases it would significantly bloat them or
> > (partially) duplicate existing scripting functionality (that can't be
> > removed for backwards compatibility or because it has more/other
> > features).
> 
> The Amiga had ARexx (Rexx itself came from IBM mainframes). Every
> "real" Amiga application exposed its functionality via its ARexx port
> which was basically just a way of delivering strings and get strings
> back in reply.
> 
> There is no need to build the scripting engine into every application.
> ARexx was just a scripting language with a built-in ability to
> communicate over ARexx ports. I wrote perl ARexx bindings so that I
> wouldn't have to learn yet another scripting language.
> 
> These days, using JSON or something like that instead of ad-hoc text
> commands would probably be best.
> 
> Being able to script across almost all of your (GUI) apps let people
> do great things with ARexx.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARexx
> 
> 
> All that said, don't DCop for KDE and dbus for gnome provide the
> basics of this (when the app has bothered to implement them)?
> 

KDE 4.X series has native support for javascript, in addition to plasma 
scripting and dbus. 

> F
> 
> > The first thing to do if you want to see this happening would be to get
> > all desktop environments to agree on a common system for this (probably
> > through FreeDesktop.org).  Good luck with that...
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > Jan Claeys
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list
> > Ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com
> > Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
_______________________________________
Roderick B. Greening, B.Sc.
Paradise, NL Canada
E-mail/MSN: roderick.greening at gmail.com 
LP: launchpad.net/~roderick-greening 
Wiki: wiki.ubuntu.com/rgreening 
Blog: roderick-greening.blogspot.com 
Twitter: twitter.com/rgreening
Identica: identi.ca/rgreening

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From steve.burke.56 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 16 22:21:28 2010
From: steve.burke.56 at gmail.com (Stephen Burke)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 17:21:28 -0500
Subject: alternative to hardcoding system util paths
Message-ID: <AANLkTinNYxNECz0H=8uV20tO6WQLkJAGYhS-FaY-QX6e@mail.gmail.com>

I'm writing a python script and I'm using aptitude and update-grub in
the script.  Currently I just use the abolute path to the bins ie.
/usr/bin/aptitude.  Ultimately I'd like to package it and distribute
it as a deb.  What's the recommended way to get these paths so they
will work on any user's machine?  Are there any environment vars that
I should use or a service of some kind?

Any help or pointing in the right direction would be appreciated or if
there is a better list to post this let me know.

Steve



From edwin.grubbs at canonical.com  Thu Sep 16 22:47:36 2010
From: edwin.grubbs at canonical.com (Edwin Grubbs)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 17:47:36 -0500
Subject: extending apport/problem_report format?
Message-ID: <AANLkTikRYpcpUKhO0fo+x1JPM-rqWz+z5L9UWROnsu3c@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Launchpad.net is looking into whether to use the problem_report python
module to store website errors or even to use the apport python module
to help collect system data for the problem report. Currently, each
exception is stored in a separate "oops" file with a bunch of extra
data, such as the cgi request variables, and it is formatted like an
rfc822 email message to take advantage of modules for formatting and
parsing. The body of the email message is a custom format, so it is
very inflexible.

The oops-tools project, which analyzes and displays the oops files in
a web page, is planned to be open sourced soon. Therefore, I have two
main questions.
1. Is there interest in having the problem_report format be extended
to handle more complex data structures that will be parsed and
analyzed by a tool such as oops-tools?
2. Would apport be interested in receiving other features of
oops-tools, such as the django based web interface for viewing oopses?
Of course, there might already be projects that provide apport any
functionality that oops-tools has to offer.

The second question is probably hard to answer right now, so I'll
focus on the limitations of the problem_report format that we would
either extend in a wrapper class or in problem_report itself.

* problem_report doesn't provide a standard format for complex data.
Even adding another level of name/value pairs inside a field is not
well supported, since you have to use a StringIO object to get the
data from ProblemReport object to put it in a field of another
ProblemReport. Lists of dictionaries would also require their own
format. Here is an example of recursive ProblemReports.

>>> import sys
>>> from problem_report import ProblemReport
>>> from StringIO import StringIO
>>> pr = ProblemReport()
>>> sub = ProblemReport()
>>> sub['one'] = '1'
>>> sub['two'] = '2'
>>> sio = StringIO()
>>> sub.write(sio)
>>> pr['numbers'] = sio.getvalue()
>>> pr['foo'] = 'bar'
>>> pr['z'] = 'zed'
>>> pr.write(sys.stdout)
ProblemType: Crash
Date: Thu Sep 16 16:45:52 2010
foo: bar
numbers:
 ProblemType: Crash
 Date: Thu Sep 16 16:46:00 2010
 one: 1
 two: 2

z: zed
>>>

* problem_report only allows field names to contain letters, numbers,
".", "_", and "-". That could cause problems when dumping a bunch of
name/value pairs from an application in order to analyze it later.
* problem_report really supports text or compressed text files. There
is no ability to specify a content-type even when using
problem_report's write_mime() method. While I can't think of a really
good reason to attach a binary file that isn't just compressed text,
being able to specify the content-type would open up the door to using
multiple human readable formats to handle complex data structures.
* The write_mime() method even encodes the single-line name/value
pairs as base64, so it is not at all human readable. I assume this is
to avoid email restrictions on the length of headers and to avoid
confusion when some characters are escaped as quoted-printable.


Both yaml and json have some advantages when storing complex data
structures, but being able to set the content-type on a field in a
ProblemReport object would enable using whatever format works best.
Assuming a field with a certain name is in a certain format makes it
difficult to use a different format later.

-Edwin



From cosme.ddiaz at gmail.com  Thu Sep 16 23:07:31 2010
From: cosme.ddiaz at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Cosme_Dom=EDnguez?=)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 01:07:31 +0200
Subject: alternative to hardcoding system util paths
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinNYxNECz0H=8uV20tO6WQLkJAGYhS-FaY-QX6e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinNYxNECz0H=8uV20tO6WQLkJAGYhS-FaY-QX6e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinCccxi+cpZxPQV2nFtuxrEA+MMx1LhOP=Hr=hd@mail.gmail.com>

2010/9/17 Stephen Burke <steve.burke.56 at gmail.com>:
> I'm writing a python script and I'm using aptitude and update-grub in
> the script.  Currently I just use the abolute path to the bins ie.
> /usr/bin/aptitude.  Ultimately I'd like to package it and distribute
> it as a deb.  What's the recommended way to get these paths so they
> will work on any user's machine?  Are there any environment vars that
> I should use or a service of some kind?
>
> Any help or pointing in the right direction would be appreciated or if
> there is a better list to post this let me know.

http://docs.python.org/library/os.html#os.system



From ddasilva at umd.edu  Fri Sep 17 00:23:06 2010
From: ddasilva at umd.edu (Daniel da Silva)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 20:23:06 -0400
Subject: alternative to hardcoding system util paths
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinCccxi+cpZxPQV2nFtuxrEA+MMx1LhOP=Hr=hd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinNYxNECz0H=8uV20tO6WQLkJAGYhS-FaY-QX6e@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinCccxi+cpZxPQV2nFtuxrEA+MMx1LhOP=Hr=hd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimu54qtfA2Lmy2rWS3XeLDTEL6tnXoFpZV-2MQp@mail.gmail.com>

You could also use the subprocess module, which like os.system, doesn't care
about the absolute path of the executable.

import subprocess
p = subprocess.Popen(['aptitude', 'search', 'gnome'])
p.wait()


On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 7:07 PM, Cosme Domínguez <cosme.ddiaz at gmail.com>wrote:

> 2010/9/17 Stephen Burke <steve.burke.56 at gmail.com>:
> > I'm writing a python script and I'm using aptitude and update-grub in
> > the script.  Currently I just use the abolute path to the bins ie.
> > /usr/bin/aptitude.  Ultimately I'd like to package it and distribute
> > it as a deb.  What's the recommended way to get these paths so they
> > will work on any user's machine?  Are there any environment vars that
> > I should use or a service of some kind?
> >
> > Any help or pointing in the right direction would be appreciated or if
> > there is a better list to post this let me know.
>
> http://docs.python.org/library/os.html#os.system
>
> --
> Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list
> Ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
>
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From martin.pitt at ubuntu.com  Wed Sep 22 10:58:09 2010
From: martin.pitt at ubuntu.com (Martin Pitt)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 12:58:09 +0200
Subject: Backport an non-exist package to lucid main
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikKG-3M6XPJ9JmXp5aNN=JLNV-8XLXn7KrHF93p@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikKG-3M6XPJ9JmXp5aNN=JLNV-8XLXn7KrHF93p@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100922105809.GO7709@piware.de>

Hello YunQiang,

YunQiang Su [2010-09-14  1:37 +0800]:
> opencc now is in 10.10's main, but it is not in lucid.
> 
> Can I backport it?

Yes, the backport process covers that.

Martin
-- 
Martin Pitt                        | http://www.piware.de
Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com)  | Debian Developer  (www.debian.org)



From martin.pitt at ubuntu.com  Wed Sep 22 11:24:05 2010
From: martin.pitt at ubuntu.com (Martin Pitt)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 13:24:05 +0200
Subject: extending apport/problem_report format?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikRYpcpUKhO0fo+x1JPM-rqWz+z5L9UWROnsu3c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikRYpcpUKhO0fo+x1JPM-rqWz+z5L9UWROnsu3c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100922112405.GB21128@piware.de>

Hello Edwin,

Edwin Grubbs [2010-09-16 17:47 -0500]:
> Launchpad.net is looking into whether to use the problem_report python
> module to store website errors or even to use the apport python module
> to help collect system data for the problem report. Currently, each
> exception is stored in a separate "oops" file with a bunch of extra
> data, such as the cgi request variables, and it is formatted like an
> rfc822 email message to take advantage of modules for formatting and
> parsing.

That indeed is what Apport .crash reports have as well.

> The oops-tools project, which analyzes and displays the oops files in
> a web page, is planned to be open sourced soon. Therefore, I have two
> main questions.
> 1. Is there interest in having the problem_report format be extended
> to handle more complex data structures that will be parsed and
> analyzed by a tool such as oops-tools?

Not from my side. So far we got along well with just having a
single-layer dictionary. The convention for lists as values is to have
one element per line, e. g.:

Dependencies:
 libfoo1
 libbar2

Can you point out an example what else you need?

> 2. Would apport be interested in receiving other features of
> oops-tools, such as the django based web interface for viewing oopses?

Is this read-only, or can you also update the data there? We have used
Launchpad Bugs as a "crash database" backend so far, because a bug
tracker provides us all the functionaly that we need, except that it's
sometimes hard to tell apart crashes and regular bugs, for getting a
clean view for triagers.

It sounds like an interesting option, though, if it can represent the
structure of Ubuntu, like distros/packages/package versions, etc.

> The second question is probably hard to answer right now, so I'll
> focus on the limitations of the problem_report format that we would
> either extend in a wrapper class or in problem_report itself.
> 
> * problem_report doesn't provide a standard format for complex data.

Right, it currently uses standard RFC822, which doesn't define any
more complex data types.

> Even adding another level of name/value pairs inside a field is not
> well supported, since you have to use a StringIO object to get the
> data from ProblemReport object to put it in a field of another
> ProblemReport. Lists of dictionaries would also require their own
> format. Here is an example of recursive ProblemReports.

This works fine if you hardcode assumptions about the syntax of
particular field names, which we generally have to for such
post-processing scripts anyway. 

But if we need complex data structures, then I'd rather use a standard
format like JSON for this, as you suggested.

The problem_report module is not conceptually limited to RFC822 only.
For example, it also has the ability to output its data Multipart/MIME
format (for uploading data to Launchpad). So it wouldn't be a problem
at all to add reading/writing JSON.

However, the module currently _is_ conceptually limited to a single
level dictionary structure, since API users can (and do) pretty much
treat it as a dictionary with extra features, and can currently rely
on the data types of the values (strings). We could allow more, and
then just fix the existing write() and write_mime() to throw an
exception if they encounter an unrepresentable data type; this would
mean you could never upload such a report to Launchpad bugs.

> * problem_report only allows field names to contain letters, numbers,
> ".", "_", and "-". That could cause problems when dumping a bunch of
> name/value pairs from an application in order to analyze it later.

That's not a problem in Apport and package hooks, since (as pointed
out before) the set of key names is pretty much static. In the cases
where it isn't, hookutils provides a helper for cleaning up key names.
I'd like to avoid arbitrary strings here, since it can easily lead to
problems, break the RFC822 format, or cause unexpected errors in
scripts which process those reports.

> * problem_report really supports text or compressed text files. There
> is no ability to specify a content-type even when using
> problem_report's write_mime() method.

In general we know what content type a field has. If not, then you
could always specify it in another field, like:

Data: blob0xDEADBEEF
DataType: image/jpeg

?

> * The write_mime() method even encodes the single-line name/value
> pairs as base64, so it is not at all human readable. 

Only if it's longer than 5 lines or has non-ASCII characters,
otherwise it lands in the "short values" text section (where it is
readable).

But why do you care? This format is supposed to be nothing more than a
transport vehicle from client computers to Launchpad. It's not really
supposed to be looked at by humans.

Thanks,

Martin

-- 
Martin Pitt                        | http://www.piware.de
Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com)  | Debian Developer  (www.debian.org)
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From mark at ubuntu.com  Wed Sep 22 14:45:30 2010
From: mark at ubuntu.com (Mark Shuttleworth)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:45:30 +0100
Subject: ubuntu-release delegations for unseeded packages
	in	universe/multiverse
In-Reply-To: <201009212120.50854.stefan.potyra@informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <201009212120.50854.stefan.potyra@informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
Message-ID: <4C9A168A.1080204@ubuntu.com>

 On 21/09/10 20:20, Stefan Potyra wrote:
> For universe/multiverse packages, that are NOT found on any installation 
> media, Feature Freeze Exceptions [1] can be obtained from one of the 
> delegates in addition to ubuntu-release until the date of Final Freeze for 
> universe [2]:
>
> * mythbuntu: Mario Limonciello (~superm1) [superm1]
> * mozilla team: Chris Coulson (~chrisccoulson) [chrisccoulson], Micah Gersten 
> (~micahg) [micahg]
> * xubuntu: Lionel Le Folgoc (~mrpouit) [mr_pouit]
> * netbook: Didier Roche  (~didrocks) [didrocks]
> * edubuntu: Jonathan Carter (~jonathan) [highvoltage], 
>             Stéphane Graber (~stgraber) [stgraber]
> * Ubuntustudio: Scott Lavender (~slavender) [ScottL]

Very nice, organised communication, thanks Stefan!

How are the delegations working out, now that we have a couple of
substantial teams carrying their respective responsibilities? Any
observations / suggestions / concerns on your end?

Mark



From mark at ubuntu.com  Wed Sep 22 14:47:41 2010
From: mark at ubuntu.com (Mark Shuttleworth)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:47:41 +0100
Subject: ubuntu-release delegations for unseeded packages
	in	universe/multiverse
In-Reply-To: <4C9A168A.1080204@ubuntu.com>
References: <201009212120.50854.stefan.potyra@informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
	<4C9A168A.1080204@ubuntu.com>
Message-ID: <4C9A170D.3030600@ubuntu.com>

 On 22/09/10 15:45, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
> Very nice, organised communication, thanks Stefan!
> How are the delegations working out, now that we have a couple of
> substantial teams carrying their respective responsibilities? Any
> observations / suggestions / concerns on your end?

*cough*. Reply-to strikes again, sorry for the broadcast, this was
intended for Stefan directly! But I'm interested in thoughts from
everyone on the list. The delegation process *should* be giving us a
smoother scalability in our diverse community, I'm interested in hear if
that's happening, and what friction is being caused if any.

Mark



From jw+debian at jameswestby.net  Wed Sep 22 14:51:53 2010
From: jw+debian at jameswestby.net (James Westby)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 10:51:53 -0400
Subject: Ubuntu Branch reviewers
In-Reply-To: <1278344866.1938.3.camel@bilal-laptop>
References: <1278344866.1938.3.camel@bilal-laptop>
Message-ID: <87fwx1rfue.fsf@jameswestby.net>

On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 18:47:46 +0300, Bilal Akhtar <bilalakhtar96 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi all, 
> I think it would be a *lot* better to set the reviewer of all ubuntu
> branches to ubuntu-sponsors. This would prevent confusion among people
> who wish to fix bugs in Ubuntu or merge packages. Such people propose a
> merge and the value of reviewer is set to ubuntu-branches, while,
> according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToFix and others, the
> reviewer should be ubuntu-sponsors. A merge proposal that has this
> mistake is
> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~joel-auterson/ubuntu/maverick/shotwell/menu_rename/+merge/28598 where I had to comment in order to get this change done.
> 
> What are your opinions?

The default reviewer for all branches is now set to ~ubuntu-dev as
discussed in this thread:

  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-December/029694.html

Thanks,

James



From happyaron.xu at gmail.com  Wed Sep 22 17:27:12 2010
From: happyaron.xu at gmail.com (Aron Xu)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 01:27:12 +0800
Subject: About ibus 1.3.7 ibus languages
In-Reply-To: <20100920195712.22026.12130.launchpad@soybean.canonical.com>
References: <20100920195712.22026.12130.launchpad@soybean.canonical.com>
Message-ID: <20100922172712.GA5936@aron-desktop>

Hi Shawn and all,

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 07:57:12PM -0000, Computerguy wrote:
> I was wondering if you wanted to use ibus-m17 for all of the other
> languages in ibus 1.3.7. I have contacted martin pitt and told him for
> japanese at least using anthy is better than ibus-m17. Anthy for
> japanese has a lot more features than ibus-m17.
> 
> Thank you, Shawn
> -- 
> This message was sent from Launchpad by
> Computerguy (https://launchpad.net/~blah-679)
> using the "Contact this user" link on your profile page
> (https://launchpad.net/~happyaron).
> For more information see
> https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/ContactingPeople

I think there are some misunderstanding for the ibus packages and what
we are doing. Please let me try to make it clear.

Here are some facts:

Firstly, ibus is almost used only by CJK users AFAIK, that is to say
Chinese (simplified and traditional), Japanese and Korean. I believe the
number of users in each of the four are descending sorted in this order
as well. 

Secondly, ibus-m17n was in CD before this time we see it is being
removed. This package provides some input method that are not good
through m17n libraries. 

Thirdly, the better choices for users:
 * Chinese: ibus-pinyin (ibus-chewing is better for some traditional 
            Chinese users, but ibus-pinyin is still good enough comparing 
	    with ibus-m17n)
 * Japanese: ibus-anthy
 * Korean: ibus-hangul

Question: What we are doing?

Now we are removing ibus-m17n (and dependencies) from the CD to save
some space, because it is not good. Maybe people will complain that with
ibus-m17n there is at least a working one but without it there is none.
Yes, but removing it should be still considered a step forward rather
than regression, because we can find better way for aid of input method
in near future's development. 

Question: Shall we also consider it a regression since some user cannot
          input characters when they just finished a fresh installation?

Definitely not. People who don't use an input method may think there is
a one that can use is better than none. But things seems to be contrary
in this specific field, because the low quality of those input methods
will do harm to user experience and when there is none users will know
they need to install it (install language support or simply a package).
In fact, we may consider it a big step forward, as explained below.

Question: Why removing ibus-m17n a step forward? 

We make Ubuntu for best user experience, so we are urging to provide top 
class applications we can. As I've said before, ibus-m17n provides not 
good input methods for users. According to our user's feedback (Chinese 
users, via forum, mailing list, irc, etc), newcomers are often be 
confused by those pre-installed input methods and thinking they are the 
recommended ones (because Ubuntu will make a best choice for their product 
if the vendor of Ubuntu is sane). Unfortunately, the input method there 
are really hard to use: for example, two "pinyin" in ibus-m17n. Input 
methods on Windows (R) platform are evolving quickly, the user will soon 
be frustrated by such 1990s style of input method in ibus-m17n, then drop
Ubuntu because they feel the experience is UNBELIEVABLE BAD. Removing
ibus-m17n from default installation is a best way of solving the
misleading.

Question: What for users who need ibus-m17n?

I've wrote at the very beginning of this letter, that most people who
are using ibus are CJK users, and these users have better choices that
we can install for them when they are installing language support. For
those who really wants input method provided by ibus-m17n, they can
simply install it handily.


-- 
Regards,
Aron Xu
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From steve.burke.56 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 22 17:43:32 2010
From: steve.burke.56 at gmail.com (Stephen Burke)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 12:43:32 -0500
Subject: python app import guidelines
Message-ID: <AANLkTin7yn_+0Pf0g7oOh9BhfbU9s62K4_WLPzJUWce_@mail.gmail.com>

I am packaging up a python app to upload it to my PPA eventually.
Before this everything I have written is in one directory so all my
imports were simple.  Now that I am breaking up the app and the top
level script is in a "bin" directory and the helper scripts are in a
"helpers" directory on the same level.  How should my imports be with
this directory structure.  Would I modify the PYTHONPATH to add any
directories I need or is there a better way to do this?  I have read
python docs about imports but I'm wondering if there are any more
guidelines in terms of imports for python apps that are packaged for
Ubuntu.

Any help would be appreciated.

Steve



From timrchavez at gmail.com  Wed Sep 22 18:00:31 2010
From: timrchavez at gmail.com (Tim Chavez)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 13:00:31 -0500
Subject: python app import guidelines
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin7yn_+0Pf0g7oOh9BhfbU9s62K4_WLPzJUWce_@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTin7yn_+0Pf0g7oOh9BhfbU9s62K4_WLPzJUWce_@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=SBNsouQwfHzoF=8WbA345Y9sD2QaMhPqw7T08@mail.gmail.com>

Stephen,

Maybe using a PYTHONPATH (or sys.path.append())  to specify the
top-level of your package and then touch'ing __init__py's in all the
directories leading to importable packages?  Maybe I've misunderstood
the question though...

-tim

On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Stephen Burke
<steve.burke.56 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am packaging up a python app to upload it to my PPA eventually.
> Before this everything I have written is in one directory so all my
> imports were simple.  Now that I am breaking up the app and the top
> level script is in a "bin" directory and the helper scripts are in a
> "helpers" directory on the same level.  How should my imports be with
> this directory structure.  Would I modify the PYTHONPATH to add any
> directories I need or is there a better way to do this?  I have read
> python docs about imports but I'm wondering if there are any more
> guidelines in terms of imports for python apps that are packaged for
> Ubuntu.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Steve
>
> --
> Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list
> Ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
>



-- 
-tim



From tuos at codegrove.org  Wed Sep 22 18:29:42 2010
From: tuos at codegrove.org (Tuomas =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E4s=E4nen?=)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 21:29:42 +0300
Subject: python app import guidelines
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin7yn_+0Pf0g7oOh9BhfbU9s62K4_WLPzJUWce_@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTin7yn_+0Pf0g7oOh9BhfbU9s62K4_WLPzJUWce_@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100922182942.GA6315@kapsi.fi>

On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 12:43:32PM -0500, Stephen Burke wrote:
> I am packaging up a python app to upload it to my PPA eventually.
> Before this everything I have written is in one directory so all my
> imports were simple.  Now that I am breaking up the app and the top
> level script is in a "bin" directory and the helper scripts are in a
> "helpers" directory on the same level.  How should my imports be with
> this directory structure.  Would I modify the PYTHONPATH to add any
> directories I need or is there a better way to do this?  I have read
> python docs about imports but I'm wondering if there are any more
> guidelines in terms of imports for python apps that are packaged for
> Ubuntu.
> 

If I understood the question correctly..

I don't think this problem is Ubuntu-specific at all. It's more about
Python's import mechanisms and distutils, but let me tell how I would do
in your situation.

I assume you are using Python version 2.6.

It's a quite good practice to place all your modules inside a package
module. Let's assume that your project is called myproject. Then I would
call the project directory myproject. I would also create a top-level
package called myproject (but the directory name here is lib). It's a
directory with __init__.py file in it.

Directory structure of the project would be something like this:

  myproject/setup.py
  myproject/src/bin/script
  myproject/src/lib/__init__.py
  myproject/src/lib/helper.py

And setup() in setup.py would resemble the one below:

  distutils.core.setup(
  .
  .
  .
  package_dir={'myproject': 'src/lib'},
  packages=['myproject'],
  scripts=['src/bin/script'],
  .
  .
  )

So the scripts reside in bin-directory and lib-directory would represent
your top-level package, myproject.

python setup.py install will install files by default under /usr/local
prefix:

  /usr/local/bin/script
  /usr/local/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/myproject
  /usr/local/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/myproject/__init__.py
  /usr/local/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/myproject/helper.py

/usr/local/bin is by default in PATH and
/usr/local/lib/python2.6./dist-packages in Python's search path.

Once installed, helper.py can be imported with:

  import myproject.helper

There should be no need to play with PYTHONPATH or sys.path.append()
whatsoever.

The package structure works as a namespace. It gives a logical structure
for your project and reduces the risk of mixing identically named
modules.

For further information, please refer to:

  http://docs.python.org/distutils/

When you are building a deb-package for your project, see
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete#Packaging%20Python%20modules%20with%20CDBS

I hope this helped. Perhaps more experienced ones can correct my
mistakes and give alternative solutions.

-- 
Tuomas
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From loic.martin3 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 22 20:39:24 2010
From: loic.martin3 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?TG/Dr2MgTWFydGlu?=)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 22:39:24 +0200
Subject: About ibus 1.3.7 ibus languages
In-Reply-To: <20100922172712.GA5936@aron-desktop>
References: <20100920195712.22026.12130.launchpad@soybean.canonical.com>
	<20100922172712.GA5936@aron-desktop>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim_LzpvwSSub74ogMOp7xbyL32op=r7XhBFNhZa@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 September 2010 19:27, Aron Xu <happyaron.xu at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thirdly, the better choices for users:
>  * Chinese: ibus-pinyin (ibus-chewing is better for some traditional
>            Chinese users, but ibus-pinyin is still good enough comparing
>            with ibus-m17n)
Pinyin won't work for Taiwanese users - like you're saying,
ibus-chewing is needed since those users don't use pinyin at all (i.e.
ibus-pinyin isn't "good enough").

Unless you mean by your selection that Cantonese users have to use
something different than ibus (which method would that be?),
ibus-pinyin and ibus-chewing don't cover all Chinese users. They'd
have to learn a whole new language (Mandarin) before even being able
to consider those methods.

> Question: What we are doing?
>
> Now we are removing ibus-m17n (and dependencies) from the CD to save
> some space, because it is not good. Maybe people will complain that with
> ibus-m17n there is at least a working one but without it there is none.
> Yes, but removing it should be still considered a step forward rather
> than regression, because we can find better way for aid of input method
> in near future's development.
>
> Question: Shall we also consider it a regression since some user cannot
>          input characters when they just finished a fresh installation?
>
> Definitely not. People who don't use an input method may think there is
> a one that can use is better than none. But things seems to be contrary
> in this specific field, because the low quality of those input methods
> will do harm to user experience and when there is none users will know
> they need to install it (install language support or simply a package).
> In fact, we may consider it a big step forward, as explained below.

I completely agree that no method at all would, in this case, be
better than one that doesn't work. The Ubuntu Community should be
aware, though, that most CJK users would just download specially
localized version of the LiveCD, resulting in more fragmentation and
less bug reports. However, that was already the case when CJK support
was not working in older versions of Ubuntu, and while it meant at the
time the main Ubuntu didn't get the fixes (and wasn't working), CJK
support has now improved to the point the international version just
works, so not getting those smaller improvements might not be a big
deal.

And thanks a lot Aron for your dedication.

(Also, sorry if the formatting isn't right - I only have access to
webmail these days).



From martin.pitt at ubuntu.com  Thu Sep 23 07:22:08 2010
From: martin.pitt at ubuntu.com (Martin Pitt)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:22:08 +0200
Subject: About ibus 1.3.7 ibus languages
In-Reply-To: <20100922172712.GA5936@aron-desktop>
References: <20100920195712.22026.12130.launchpad@soybean.canonical.com>
	<20100922172712.GA5936@aron-desktop>
Message-ID: <20100923072208.GA2543@piware.de>

Hello Aron,

thanks for the explanations!

Aron Xu [2010-09-23  1:27 +0800]:
>  * Chinese: ibus-pinyin (ibus-chewing is better for some traditional 
>             Chinese users, but ibus-pinyin is still good enough comparing 
> 	    with ibus-m17n)
>  * Japanese: ibus-anthy
>  * Korean: ibus-hangul

I confirm that those three are pulled in by their respective
language-support-*, i. e. if you install with a network connection,
you will get them by default for those languages. -pinyin is now
on the CDs in maverick, so Chinese users will always get pinyin
regardless of network status.

Martin
-- 
Martin Pitt                        | http://www.piware.de
Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com)  | Debian Developer  (www.debian.org)
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From martin.pitt at ubuntu.com  Thu Sep 23 07:23:31 2010
From: martin.pitt at ubuntu.com (Martin Pitt)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:23:31 +0200
Subject: About ibus 1.3.7 ibus languages
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim_LzpvwSSub74ogMOp7xbyL32op=r7XhBFNhZa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100920195712.22026.12130.launchpad@soybean.canonical.com>
	<20100922172712.GA5936@aron-desktop>
	<AANLkTim_LzpvwSSub74ogMOp7xbyL32op=r7XhBFNhZa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100923072331.GB2543@piware.de>

Loïc Martin [2010-09-22 22:39 +0200]:
> Pinyin won't work for Taiwanese users - like you're saying,
> ibus-chewing is needed since those users don't use pinyin at all (i.e.
> ibus-pinyin isn't "good enough").

language-support-fonts-zh-hant (for Taiwanese users) does pull in
ibus-chewing and ibus-table-cangjie. Do we need anything else?

Thanks,

Martin

-- 
Martin Pitt                        | http://www.piware.de
Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com)  | Debian Developer  (www.debian.org)



From steve.burke.56 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 23 14:16:09 2010
From: steve.burke.56 at gmail.com (Stephen Burke)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:16:09 -0500
Subject: python app import guidelines
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=SBNsouQwfHzoF=8WbA345Y9sD2QaMhPqw7T08@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTin7yn_+0Pf0g7oOh9BhfbU9s62K4_WLPzJUWce_@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=SBNsouQwfHzoF=8WbA345Y9sD2QaMhPqw7T08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim5ChvmhW6af6kxbUb9rbo=7nSMSyC=N3azoh85@mail.gmail.com>

It was a pretty vague question but I think you guys pointed me in the
right direction.  I think distutils is what I'm missing.

Thanks for the help.
Steve

On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 1:00 PM, Tim Chavez <timrchavez at gmail.com> wrote:
> Stephen,
>
> Maybe using a PYTHONPATH (or sys.path.append())  to specify the
> top-level of your package and then touch'ing __init__py's in all the
> directories leading to importable packages?  Maybe I've misunderstood
> the question though...
>
> -tim
>
> On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Stephen Burke
> <steve.burke.56 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am packaging up a python app to upload it to my PPA eventually.
>> Before this everything I have written is in one directory so all my
>> imports were simple.  Now that I am breaking up the app and the top
>> level script is in a "bin" directory and the helper scripts are in a
>> "helpers" directory on the same level.  How should my imports be with
>> this directory structure.  Would I modify the PYTHONPATH to add any
>> directories I need or is there a better way to do this?  I have read
>> python docs about imports but I'm wondering if there are any more
>> guidelines in terms of imports for python apps that are packaged for
>> Ubuntu.
>>
>> Any help would be appreciated.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> --
>> Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list
>> Ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com
>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
>>
>
>
>
> --
> -tim
>



From edwin.grubbs at canonical.com  Thu Sep 23 21:38:58 2010
From: edwin.grubbs at canonical.com (Edwin Grubbs)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 16:38:58 -0500
Subject: extending apport/problem_report format?
In-Reply-To: <20100922112405.GB21128@piware.de>
References: <AANLkTikRYpcpUKhO0fo+x1JPM-rqWz+z5L9UWROnsu3c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100922112405.GB21128@piware.de>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimVS7duoEJJO-fCQuGB=RvMSqWP0jf7S9PaF27F@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 6:24 AM, Martin Pitt <martin.pitt at ubuntu.com> wrote:
> Hello Edwin,
>
> Edwin Grubbs [2010-09-16 17:47 -0500]:
>> Launchpad.net is looking into whether to use the problem_report python
>> module to store website errors or even to use the apport python module
>> to help collect system data for the problem report. Currently, each
>> exception is stored in a separate "oops" file with a bunch of extra
>> data, such as the cgi request variables, and it is formatted like an
>> rfc822 email message to take advantage of modules for formatting and
>> parsing.
>
> That indeed is what Apport .crash reports have as well.
>
>> The oops-tools project, which analyzes and displays the oops files in
>> a web page, is planned to be open sourced soon. Therefore, I have two
>> main questions.
>> 1. Is there interest in having the problem_report format be extended
>> to handle more complex data structures that will be parsed and
>> analyzed by a tool such as oops-tools?
>
> Not from my side. So far we got along well with just having a
> single-layer dictionary. The convention for lists as values is to have
> one element per line, e. g.:
>
> Dependencies:
>  libfoo1
>  libbar2
>
> Can you point out an example what else you need?


Currently, the oops contains a list of all the sql queries that
occurred during a page request. Each item in the list will also
include the start and stop time relative to the beginning of the
request and the db user. Query parameters aren't included, but we're
planning on adding that. We might switch it to a list of dictionaries
formatted as JSON, which will make it easier to extend in future. The
oops-tool displays a page with a separate section for the five slowest
queries and for the queries that repeat.


>> 2. Would apport be interested in receiving other features of
>> oops-tools, such as the django based web interface for viewing oopses?
>
> Is this read-only, or can you also update the data there? We have used
> Launchpad Bugs as a "crash database" backend so far, because a bug
> tracker provides us all the functionaly that we need, except that it's
> sometimes hard to tell apart crashes and regular bugs, for getting a
> clean view for triagers.
>
> It sounds like an interesting option, though, if it can represent the
> structure of Ubuntu, like distros/packages/package versions, etc.


The web UI is read-only. Besides displaying data related to an error,
it groups oopses by the their page/error, and it sends out email
reports about which pages are the worst offenders. I'm actually not
trying to convince you to use oops-tools. I'm just trying to figure
out what the relationship should be between these two projects that
have a lot of overlap in their scopes. I don't want to add features
just to oops-tools, if that work would be beneficial to apport.


>> The second question is probably hard to answer right now, so I'll
>> focus on the limitations of the problem_report format that we would
>> either extend in a wrapper class or in problem_report itself.
>>
>> * problem_report doesn't provide a standard format for complex data.
>
> Right, it currently uses standard RFC822, which doesn't define any
> more complex data types.
>
>> Even adding another level of name/value pairs inside a field is not
>> well supported, since you have to use a StringIO object to get the
>> data from ProblemReport object to put it in a field of another
>> ProblemReport. Lists of dictionaries would also require their own
>> format. Here is an example of recursive ProblemReports.
>
> This works fine if you hardcode assumptions about the syntax of
> particular field names, which we generally have to for such
> post-processing scripts anyway.


I would like to avoid hardcoding assumptions, since it makes it more
complicated to change the format of a field in the future, since the
format will have to be introspected.


> But if we need complex data structures, then I'd rather use a standard
> format like JSON for this, as you suggested.
>
> The problem_report module is not conceptually limited to RFC822 only.
> For example, it also has the ability to output its data Multipart/MIME
> format (for uploading data to Launchpad). So it wouldn't be a problem
> at all to add reading/writing JSON.
>
> However, the module currently _is_ conceptually limited to a single
> level dictionary structure, since API users can (and do) pretty much
> treat it as a dictionary with extra features, and can currently rely
> on the data types of the values (strings). We could allow more, and
> then just fix the existing write() and write_mime() to throw an
> exception if they encounter an unrepresentable data type; this would
> mean you could never upload such a report to Launchpad bugs.
>
>> * problem_report only allows field names to contain letters, numbers,
>> ".", "_", and "-". That could cause problems when dumping a bunch of
>> name/value pairs from an application in order to analyze it later.
>
> That's not a problem in Apport and package hooks, since (as pointed
> out before) the set of key names is pretty much static. In the cases
> where it isn't, hookutils provides a helper for cleaning up key names.
> I'd like to avoid arbitrary strings here, since it can easily lead to
> problems, break the RFC822 format, or cause unexpected errors in
> scripts which process those reports.
>
>> * problem_report really supports text or compressed text files. There
>> is no ability to specify a content-type even when using
>> problem_report's write_mime() method.
>
> In general we know what content type a field has. If not, then you
> could always specify it in another field, like:
>
> Data: blob0xDEADBEEF
> DataType: image/jpeg
>
> ?


Since MIME already expects Content-Type metadata, it seems strange to
store it in a separate field.


>> * The write_mime() method even encodes the single-line name/value
>> pairs as base64, so it is not at all human readable.
>
> Only if it's longer than 5 lines or has non-ASCII characters,
> otherwise it lands in the "short values" text section (where it is
> readable).

I don't know if I'm just not aware of a parameter, but all the short
values are base64 encoded when I run write_mime(), even if the only
fields are ProblemType and Date, which were autogenerated.

> But why do you care? This format is supposed to be nothing more than a
> transport vehicle from client computers to Launchpad. It's not really
> supposed to be looked at by humans.


Well, the reason I was looking at mime as something besides just a
transport vehicle is because it already has a defined way to specify
the Content-Type. Although we usually view oopses through the oops
tool, we sometimes view them on disk. In that case, there is some
benefit to having all the short values at the top of the file, where
they can be perused easily, like normal RFC822 headers. Then, the the
really large fields can be placed at the bottom like mime attachments,
which makes them less likely to obscure the view of the small fields.

We really don't get any benefit from problem_report providing a method
to safely transport the info via email. We just want a human-readable
format that we can easily parse so it can be analyzed. In which case,
we should probably focus our discussion on ProblemReport.write()
instead of write_mime().

In some ways, I am trying to future-proof our choice of format,
instead of focusing on just the immediate needs, which is why mime
seemed so attractive. apport is still attractive to us since it
provides a lot of methods for collecting system data.

Do any of the features we've talked about sound like something you
would like added to apport/problem_report? If not, I'll just take the
discussion back to our team about using a separate field to store the
Content-Type and using something like JSON for complex data or for
name/value pairs whose names contain characters that apport doesn't
allow, and whose names we don't want to have cleaned.

-Edwin



From memilanuk at gmail.com  Fri Sep 24 03:00:48 2010
From: memilanuk at gmail.com (Monte Milanuk)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 20:00:48 -0700
Subject: Server install boot options
Message-ID: <i7h498$7dg$1@dough.gmane.org>

Hello,

I'm curious about the boot options during the server install immediately
following selecting the language. The ones labeled 'F1, F2,...F6' at the
bottom of the screen. I can't seem to find any usable information in the 
official documentation, and what I can find in the community docs seems 
to apply to the desktop live cd version, as the options are different 
from what I'm seeing when booting from the server install cd.

Specifically, the option 'F4 Modes' used to be for selecting graphics
modes, but now contains options 'Normal', 'OEM Install', 'Install
minimal system', and 'Install minimal virtual machine'. And 'F6 Boot
Options' used to contain various parameters for booting with funky
hardware... it still does, but has two other options 'Expert' and 'Free
Software Only' which are similarly unexplained as to what exactly they do.

Where can I find some documentation that covers what those options
actually do, how they differ from the normal 'full' server install, 
etc.? Seems like some important options to be left completely out of the 
official documents...  I've asked a number of places, from 
ubuntu.stackexchange.com to the Ubuntu forums, IRC, the ubuntu-server 
mailing list, etc. and haven't gotten much in the way of useful answers 
other than the 'minimal virtual machine' install is basically a JeOS 
version with some drivers left out.  Otherwise... seems kind of like a 
black hole ;)

Thanks,

Monte





From przemekkulczycki at gmail.com  Sat Sep 25 12:32:47 2010
From: przemekkulczycki at gmail.com (Przemek Kulczycki)
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 14:32:47 +0200
Subject: Ubuntu 10.10 fails to boot on Intel Macs
Message-ID: <AANLkTimaSR6RaCHosxnATsXJUBW1SiH0Se2PZ2N_Spm5@mail.gmail.com>

Hi.
I'd like to point you to a serious bug that seems to affect all Intel
based Macs.
https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/633983
Ubuntu 10.10 beta fails to boot on Intel Macs.
The Mac will hang right after Boot Camp/rEFIt with a black screen showing:
-----
1.

2.

Select CD-ROM Boot Type :
-----

This looks like an issue with the new release of Syslinux 4.x series,
which has trouble working with Apple EFI implementation.
I'd like to ask other owners of Intel based Macs and Macbooks to test
the latest daily live ISO on their hardware.
Regards,
-- 
# Przemysław Kulczycki
## Jabber/XMPP/Gtalk/Tlen ID: azrael[na]jabster.pl
## (Co to jest? Zobacz na: http://jabberfaq.info )
# www: http://reksio.ftj.agh.edu.pl/~azrael/



From fergal at esatclear.ie  Sat Sep 25 13:30:45 2010
From: fergal at esatclear.ie (Fergal Daly)
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 14:30:45 +0100
Subject: is python-pymtp maintained?
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=qeb=bOe1stnUWj0A6KRAFCGVPNZ9O0g8FZ9fA@mail.gmail.com>

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pymtp/+bug/575091

is 4 months old, has 2 patches to fix this library (which is
completely broken in lucid) but no one on the Ubuntu side has
responded,

F



From seven.steps at gmail.com  Sat Sep 25 13:58:33 2010
From: seven.steps at gmail.com (Daniel Chen)
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 09:58:33 -0400
Subject: is python-pymtp maintained?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=qeb=bOe1stnUWj0A6KRAFCGVPNZ9O0g8FZ9fA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=qeb=bOe1stnUWj0A6KRAFCGVPNZ9O0g8FZ9fA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinzRvHLP0EEpjpu3YzGkjzwEXhZsJdyx-QjrSdd@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 9:30 AM, Fergal Daly <fergal at esatclear.ie> wrote:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pymtp/+bug/575091
>
> is 4 months old, has 2 patches to fix this library (which is
> completely broken in lucid) but no one on the Ubuntu side has
> responded,

Alas, I'm sure this is due to resource constraints (i.e., fewer active
and able maintainers in Ubuntu for the huge pool of universe sources).
 Thanks for raising it, however.

Looking at the patch, much of it seems to be unnecessary whitespace
changes, which explodes the diff.  The actual changes themselves seem
reasonable, but there needs to be a lot of testing for both Maverick
and Lucid at this point.  If patches can be generated against the
Maverick and Lucid sources separately and posted to the bug report,
that would help tremendously.  The changes would need to include the
relevant bit from Debian's 0.0.4-2 upload, too.

Best,
-Dan



From fergal at esatclear.ie  Sat Sep 25 14:17:30 2010
From: fergal at esatclear.ie (Fergal Daly)
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 15:17:30 +0100
Subject: is python-pymtp maintained?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinzRvHLP0EEpjpu3YzGkjzwEXhZsJdyx-QjrSdd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=qeb=bOe1stnUWj0A6KRAFCGVPNZ9O0g8FZ9fA@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinzRvHLP0EEpjpu3YzGkjzwEXhZsJdyx-QjrSdd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim4YFYq=YVBKpyhAUC96zyFFgob0KQZQLH4mcad@mail.gmail.com>

On 25 September 2010 14:58, Daniel Chen <seven.steps at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 9:30 AM, Fergal Daly <fergal at esatclear.ie> wrote:
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pymtp/+bug/575091
>>
>> is 4 months old, has 2 patches to fix this library (which is
>> completely broken in lucid) but no one on the Ubuntu side has
>> responded,
>
> Alas, I'm sure this is due to resource constraints (i.e., fewer active
> and able maintainers in Ubuntu for the huge pool of universe sources).
>  Thanks for raising it, however.
>
> Looking at the patch, much of it seems to be unnecessary whitespace
> changes, which explodes the diff.  The actual changes themselves seem
> reasonable, but there needs to be a lot of testing for both Maverick
> and Lucid at this point.  If patches can be generated against the
> Maverick and Lucid sources separately and posted to the bug report,
> that would help tremendously.  The changes would need to include the
> relevant bit from Debian's 0.0.4-2 upload, too.

The first attachment is a patch (not a new version of the file) and
has no extraneous whitespace.

As for testing, basic operations like listing tracks or playlists
segfault right now. The ABI has changed. The python library is not
swigged, it uses python's module for accessing C structs and calling C
function. Since extra fields have been inserted in a C structs, the
python library is then off by some number of bytes and starts using
the modifcation time or some other field as the pointer to the next
item in the list.

So I claim that no testing whatsoever was done on this library before
now, I don't see why that suddenly becomes a barrier,

F

> Best,
> -Dan
>



From seven.steps at gmail.com  Sat Sep 25 14:40:48 2010
From: seven.steps at gmail.com (Daniel Chen)
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 10:40:48 -0400
Subject: is python-pymtp maintained?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim4YFYq=YVBKpyhAUC96zyFFgob0KQZQLH4mcad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=qeb=bOe1stnUWj0A6KRAFCGVPNZ9O0g8FZ9fA@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinzRvHLP0EEpjpu3YzGkjzwEXhZsJdyx-QjrSdd@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim4YFYq=YVBKpyhAUC96zyFFgob0KQZQLH4mcad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=ahJWP_2+cgZQ9EdqbzF4TwXZEK_Z5uvCw+qOp@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 10:17 AM, Fergal Daly <fergal at esatclear.ie> wrote:
> The first attachment is a patch (not a new version of the file) and
> has no extraneous whitespace.

I see only one attachment for that bug report,
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pymtp/+bug/575091/+attachment/1535455/+files/pymtp_patched.py,
which doesn't seem to be a patch but in fact a complete source file
(sha256sum):

4ce862a14a0041bb9b6c447959930482291b8d73ef6ed7cfb1b0b2e03b3d5543
pymtp_patched.py


> So I claim that no testing whatsoever was done on this library before
> now, I don't see why that suddenly becomes a barrier,

I believe there has been a misinterpretation of my response, which was
simply a set of points to take into consideration when going through
the StableReleaseUpdates procedure.

Best,
-Dan



From fergal at esatclear.ie  Sat Sep 25 15:32:35 2010
From: fergal at esatclear.ie (Fergal Daly)
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 16:32:35 +0100
Subject: is python-pymtp maintained?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=ahJWP_2+cgZQ9EdqbzF4TwXZEK_Z5uvCw+qOp@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=qeb=bOe1stnUWj0A6KRAFCGVPNZ9O0g8FZ9fA@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinzRvHLP0EEpjpu3YzGkjzwEXhZsJdyx-QjrSdd@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim4YFYq=YVBKpyhAUC96zyFFgob0KQZQLH4mcad@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=ahJWP_2+cgZQ9EdqbzF4TwXZEK_Z5uvCw+qOp@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiktSaY+E5dThywYpSmcYPxRMUvYbo7Tvp7JQg1W@mail.gmail.com>

On 25 September 2010 15:40, Daniel Chen <seven.steps at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 10:17 AM, Fergal Daly <fergal at esatclear.ie> wrote:
>> The first attachment is a patch (not a new version of the file) and
>> has no extraneous whitespace.
>
> I see only one attachment for that bug report,
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pymtp/+bug/575091/+attachment/1535455/+files/pymtp_patched.py,
> which doesn't seem to be a patch but in fact a complete source file
> (sha256sum):

Yeah, I'm sure I pressed at least some of the buttons necessary to
attach a patch a long time ago. Sorry about that. It's attached now.

> 4ce862a14a0041bb9b6c447959930482291b8d73ef6ed7cfb1b0b2e03b3d5543
> pymtp_patched.py
>
>
>> So I claim that no testing whatsoever was done on this library before
>> now, I don't see why that suddenly becomes a barrier,
>
> I believe there has been a misinterpretation of my response, which was
> simply a set of points to take into consideration when going through
> the StableReleaseUpdates procedure.

Fair enough,

F

> Best,
> -Dan
>



From gonsolo at gmail.com  Mon Sep 27 00:57:08 2010
From: gonsolo at gmail.com (Gonsolo)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 02:57:08 +0200
Subject: Split all documentation into their own packages
Message-ID: <AANLkTimi+Ss6e1TE6fG0mHReE8STeZzUim7P7Wb=RR78@mail.gmail.com>

I own a web server with tight space (1GB). Over 300MB are in /usr,
over 25MB in /usr/share/doc. I'd like to remove all files in
/usr/share/doc but unfortunately it is not as easy as removing all
-doc packages.

Is it possible to set up a policy that all packages that have files in
/usr/share/doc should be -doc packages and split from the main
package?

Thanks for reading.

g



From gregbair at gmail.com  Mon Sep 27 04:43:52 2010
From: gregbair at gmail.com (Greg)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 00:43:52 -0400
Subject: Split all documentation into their own packages
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimi+Ss6e1TE6fG0mHReE8STeZzUim7P7Wb=RR78@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimi+Ss6e1TE6fG0mHReE8STeZzUim7P7Wb=RR78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik09d_jGmW-dZ-Jp+s3iZKeoz309RU5ztE9pL3B@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Gonsolo <gonsolo at gmail.com> wrote:

> I own a web server with tight space (1GB). Over 300MB are in /usr,
> over 25MB in /usr/share/doc. I'd like to remove all files in
> /usr/share/doc but unfortunately it is not as easy as removing all
> -doc packages.
>
> Is it possible to set up a policy that all packages that have files in
> /usr/share/doc should be -doc packages and split from the main
> package?
>
> Thanks for reading.
>
> g


This seems like a good idea to me.

-- 
Greg Bair
gregbair at gmail.com
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From gregbair at gmail.com  Mon Sep 27 05:52:16 2010
From: gregbair at gmail.com (Greg)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 01:52:16 -0400
Subject: Split all documentation into their own packages
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikej5+nxELgRVN3XU8-oiL8znXH35oCmnduGnSt@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimi+Ss6e1TE6fG0mHReE8STeZzUim7P7Wb=RR78@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik09d_jGmW-dZ-Jp+s3iZKeoz309RU5ztE9pL3B@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikej5+nxELgRVN3XU8-oiL8znXH35oCmnduGnSt@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=DYAuDu=E_oW_1m7uCcwPqJ_Tj=FuyBQ4ZtZdT@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 1:42 AM, YunQiang Su <wzssyqa at gmail.com> wrote:

> For Debian based system,there is no way.
>
> there are files required by debian policy, such as copyright changelog
> ,etc.
>
> If you have such tight space, maybe ubuntu is not fit to you.
>
> I don't think this is what he means.  I think he's talking about man pages,
info pages, etc.


-- 
Greg Bair
gregbair at gmail.com
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From martin.pitt at ubuntu.com  Mon Sep 27 07:50:03 2010
From: martin.pitt at ubuntu.com (Martin Pitt)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:50:03 +0200
Subject: Split all documentation into their own packages
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimi+Ss6e1TE6fG0mHReE8STeZzUim7P7Wb=RR78@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimi+Ss6e1TE6fG0mHReE8STeZzUim7P7Wb=RR78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100927075003.GD2589@piware.de>

Hello Gonsole,

Gonsolo [2010-09-27  2:57 +0200]:
> I own a web server with tight space (1GB). Over 300MB are in /usr,
> over 25MB in /usr/share/doc. I'd like to remove all files in
> /usr/share/doc but unfortunately it is not as easy as removing all
> -doc packages.

You can do that relatively easily in Maverick thanks to a new dpkg
feature:

  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReducingDiskFootprint#Drop%20unnecessary%20files

Martin
-- 
Martin Pitt                        | http://www.piware.de
Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com)  | Debian Developer  (www.debian.org)



From marius at pov.lt  Mon Sep 27 13:56:17 2010
From: marius at pov.lt (Marius Gedminas)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:56:17 +0300
Subject: Split all documentation into their own packages
In-Reply-To: <20100927075003.GD2589@piware.de>
References: <AANLkTimi+Ss6e1TE6fG0mHReE8STeZzUim7P7Wb=RR78@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100927075003.GD2589@piware.de>
Message-ID: <20100927135617.GA28877@fridge.pov.lt>

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 09:50:03AM +0200, Martin Pitt wrote:
> Hello Gonsole,
> 
> Gonsolo [2010-09-27  2:57 +0200]:
> > I own a web server with tight space (1GB). Over 300MB are in /usr,
> > over 25MB in /usr/share/doc. I'd like to remove all files in
> > /usr/share/doc but unfortunately it is not as easy as removing all
> > -doc packages.
> 
> You can do that relatively easily in Maverick thanks to a new dpkg
> feature:
> 
>   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReducingDiskFootprint#Drop%20unnecessary%20files

Wouldn't it be better/safer to use

    find /usr/share/doc -depth -type f ! -name copyright -delete || true
    find /usr/share/doc -empty -delete || true

instead of piping filenames through |xargs rm/rmdir?

Marius Gedminas
-- 
Go not unto the Usenet for advice, for you will be told both yea and nay (and
quite a few things that just have nothing at all to do with the question).
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From gonsolo at gmail.com  Mon Sep 27 14:26:10 2010
From: gonsolo at gmail.com (Gonsolo)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:26:10 +0200
Subject: Split all documentation into their own packages
In-Reply-To: <20100927135617.GA28877@fridge.pov.lt>
References: <AANLkTimi+Ss6e1TE6fG0mHReE8STeZzUim7P7Wb=RR78@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100927075003.GD2589@piware.de>
	<20100927135617.GA28877@fridge.pov.lt>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin0WbbvYOtNAuhC4SBOyZ-Tp+h3-wDgiJDtnN=G@mail.gmail.com>

>> You can do that relatively easily in Maverick thanks to a new dpkg
>> feature:
>>
>>   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReducingDiskFootprint#Drop%20unnecessary%20files
>
> Wouldn't it be better/safer to use
>
>    find /usr/share/doc -depth -type f ! -name copyright -delete || true
>    find /usr/share/doc -empty -delete || true
>
> instead of piping filenames through |xargs rm/rmdir?

Well, then you package system is destroyed/bewildered, isn't it?
I am looking for a way to leave apt/dpkg in a working state.

g



From martin.pitt at ubuntu.com  Mon Sep 27 14:42:57 2010
From: martin.pitt at ubuntu.com (Martin Pitt)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:42:57 +0200
Subject: Split all documentation into their own packages
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin0WbbvYOtNAuhC4SBOyZ-Tp+h3-wDgiJDtnN=G@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimi+Ss6e1TE6fG0mHReE8STeZzUim7P7Wb=RR78@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100927075003.GD2589@piware.de>
	<20100927135617.GA28877@fridge.pov.lt>
	<AANLkTin0WbbvYOtNAuhC4SBOyZ-Tp+h3-wDgiJDtnN=G@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100927144257.GG2589@piware.de>

Gonsolo [2010-09-27 16:26 +0200]:
> Well, then you package system is destroyed/bewildered, isn't it?

No, if you add these filters to /etc/dpkg/dpkg/conf.d/, the packaging
system will be fine.

Martin
-- 
Martin Pitt                        | http://www.piware.de
Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com)  | Debian Developer  (www.debian.org)



From kirkland at ubuntu.com  Mon Sep 27 20:54:35 2010
From: kirkland at ubuntu.com (Dustin Kirkland)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 13:54:35 -0700
Subject: Split all documentation into their own packages
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimi+Ss6e1TE6fG0mHReE8STeZzUim7P7Wb=RR78@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimi+Ss6e1TE6fG0mHReE8STeZzUim7P7Wb=RR78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimp6RtJtVizpczag+nHnYq=3L6Rrj3JjDGgiZsa@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 5:57 PM, Gonsolo <gonsolo at gmail.com> wrote:
> I own a web server with tight space (1GB). Over 300MB are in /usr,
> over 25MB in /usr/share/doc. I'd like to remove all files in
> /usr/share/doc but unfortunately it is not as easy as removing all
> -doc packages.
>
> Is it possible to set up a policy that all packages that have files in
> /usr/share/doc should be -doc packages and split from the main
> package?

Also, note that you can "wget http://manpages.ubuntu.com/dman", make
it executable, and then use 'dman [foo]' to remotely retrieve each
given manpage from the web.  Thus, you could remove all of
/usr/share/man and just use 'dman' to pull manpages from the web on
demand.

I have packaged this tool and will be uploaded it for Natty (with a
couple of other interesting hacks).

:-Dustin



From bdrung at ubuntu.com  Tue Sep 28 23:48:32 2010
From: bdrung at ubuntu.com (Benjamin Drung)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 01:48:32 +0200
Subject: How to handle sponsor request not suitable for the current release
	period
Message-ID: <1285717712.2212.150.camel@deep-thought>

Hi,

The current process (described in UbuntuDevelopment/CodeReviews [1]) for
handling sponsor request not suitable for the current release period is:

1. Let the contributor know that the patch is not suitable for the
current release period.
2. Unsubscribe ubuntu-sponsors.
3. Subscribe yourself to the bug report (this ensures it shows up in the
following url)
4. Milestone the bug to 'later'.
5. Visit https://bugs.launchpad.net/people/+me/+bugs/?field.milestone%
3Alist=196 once the new release opens and upload the fix. 

I don't like this process, because some request could get lost if step
five is forgotten. I propose following change:

1. Let the contributor know that the patch is not suitable for the
current release period.
2. Add a tag that indicates that the bug is delayed to the next release
(for example, deferred-to-natty)

Then the sponsor overview [2] needs to be adjusted to understand the tag
from point two. The list will be split into two lists. The first list
will contain the bugs that needs to be processed. The second list will
contain the deferred bugs. Once the new series is open for upload, the
deferred bugs will be moved back to list one.

This concept could be extented to bugs that require work from the
requester. All bugs that are Incomplete could be put on list two.

What do you think? Do you have better ideas?

[1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/CodeReviews
[2] http://people.ubuntu.com/~bdrung/sponsoring/ until my patch is
merged to http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/

-- 
Benjamin Drung
Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Maintainer (www.debian.org)
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From eixman at gmx.de  Wed Sep 29 14:28:46 2010
From: eixman at gmx.de (Florian Rehnisch)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 16:28:46 +0200
Subject: Split all documentation into their own packages
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimi+Ss6e1TE6fG0mHReE8STeZzUim7P7Wb=RR78@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimi+Ss6e1TE6fG0mHReE8STeZzUim7P7Wb=RR78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100929142846.GA11545@isang>

* Gonsolo <gonsolo at gmail.com> [100927 02:57]:
> I own a web server with tight space (1GB). Over 300MB are in /usr,
> over 25MB in /usr/share/doc. I'd like to remove all files in
> /usr/share/doc but unfortunately it is not as easy as removing all
> -doc packages.

Things that take up space:

-- files in /usr/share/doc:
   per (Debian) policy, they can be removed w/o side effects to the
   operation of the system.

-- files in /usr/share/locales:
   mostly translation for binaries, you can have unwanted
   ones be removed by localpurge

-- files in /usr/share/man:
   man pages, sometimes get translated, too.  same as for
   locales.

-- files in /usr/share/info:
   don't know if emacs hates them to be removed; I vim.

> Is it possible to set up a policy that all packages that have files in
> /usr/share/doc should be -doc packages and split from the main
> package?

Don't see a way: that would mean much efford to the package
maintainers w/o a broad use ...

And personally I think, a package up to 256KB packed size
shouldn't be split up in -bin, -doc. -l10n at all.

And as said before, the files
/usd/<package>/{copyright,changelog(.Debian)?} are even
required by (Debian) policy for each package, so that would
be a contradiction ...

HTH,
 flori



From danielhollocher at gmail.com  Wed Sep 29 20:41:38 2010
From: danielhollocher at gmail.com (Daniel Hollocher)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 16:41:38 -0400
Subject: ondemand vs conservative
Message-ID: <AANLkTimNEkabUOJL1Pstr0QP3jKRVG-_iJLCHBu4Yoth@mail.gmail.com>

Hey folks,
Anyone know about the difference between the ondemand vs conservative
frequency governors?  I'm on a core2duo dual core intel type chip, and
I am getting much better performance with conservative selected.  I
first heard about the conservative governor in the context of getting
better flash video performance, but it looks better accross the board
for me.  I will post some kraken benchmarks at the bottom so you can
see what I'm talking about.  I've also vaguely tested with some video
compression, and it looks similar in performance to me.

Should I file a bug against ondemand?  or a bug requesting the default
governor be conservative?  I really don't know.  IMHO, the performance
difference and the non-obviousness of how to change the defaults (it
looks like you have to edit the upstart script) warrant some sort of
change.

Thanks,
Dan


TEST                         COMPARISON            FROM
 TO               DETAILS

====================================================================================

** TOTAL **:                 1.25x as fast     33744.5ms +/- 2.5%
27033.1ms +/- 1.4%     significant

====================================================================================

  ai:                        1.194x as fast     1410.6ms +/- 3.9%
1181.2ms +/- 8.1%     significant
    astar:                   1.194x as fast     1410.6ms +/- 3.9%
1181.2ms +/- 8.1%     significant

  audio:                     1.25x as fast     13168.3ms +/- 2.4%
10561.9ms +/- 2.0%     significant
    beat-detection:          1.26x as fast      4669.0ms +/- 3.3%
3704.0ms +/- 3.5%     significant
    dft:                     1.098x as fast     2559.1ms +/- 3.5%
2330.6ms +/- 2.4%     significant
    fft:                     1.30x as fast      4577.2ms +/- 4.8%
3508.8ms +/- 2.3%     significant
    oscillator:              1.34x as fast      1363.0ms +/- 2.0%
1018.5ms +/- 3.3%     significant

  imaging:                   1.25x as fast     13957.9ms +/- 4.8%
11158.0ms +/- 2.2%     significant
    gaussian-blur:           1.29x as fast      6846.8ms +/- 9.6%
5296.9ms +/- 2.6%     significant
    darkroom:                1.22x as fast      3387.3ms +/- 4.0%
2783.7ms +/- 3.0%     significant
    desaturate:              1.21x as fast      3723.8ms +/- 3.6%
3077.4ms +/- 6.6%     significant

  json:                      1.31x as fast      1359.7ms +/- 3.4%
1041.7ms +/- 3.7%     significant
    parse-financial:         1.35x as fast       783.6ms +/- 4.7%
578.6ms +/- 2.9%     significant
    stringify-tinderbox:     1.24x as fast       576.1ms +/- 8.1%
463.1ms +/- 5.7%     significant

  stanford:                  1.25x as fast      3848.0ms +/- 2.6%
3090.3ms +/- 4.9%     significant
    crypto-aes:              1.26x as fast       720.0ms +/- 6.8%
569.5ms +/- 6.6%     significant
    crypto-ccm:              1.21x as fast       610.5ms +/- 8.6%
503.5ms +/- 5.2%     significant
    crypto-pbkdf2:           1.24x as fast      1876.0ms +/- 4.4%
1507.8ms +/- 6.2%     significant
    crypto-sha256-iterative: 1.26x as fast       641.5ms +/- 5.5%
509.5ms +/- 5.0%     significant



From siegfried at gevatter.com  Wed Sep 29 20:54:15 2010
From: siegfried at gevatter.com (Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:54:15 +0200
Subject: ondemand vs conservative
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimNEkabUOJL1Pstr0QP3jKRVG-_iJLCHBu4Yoth@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimNEkabUOJL1Pstr0QP3jKRVG-_iJLCHBu4Yoth@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinG5-tiLGS9pYhG_pn0ZAsasfeqpg0eH2wvYArL@mail.gmail.com>

Hey,

Google gives me this:
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_make_use_of_Dynamic_Frequency_Scaling

"The ondemand (available since 2.6.10) and conservative (since 2.6.12)
are governors based on in kernel implementations of CPU scaling
algorithms: they scale the CPU frequencies according to the needs
(like does the userspace frequency scaling daemons, but in kernel).
They differs in the way they scale up and down. The ondemand governor
switches to the highest frequency immediately when there is load,
while the conservative governor increases frequency step by step.
Likewise they behave the other way round for stepping down frequency
when the CPU is idle. The conservative governor is good for battery
powered environments on AMD64 (but may not work on older ThinkPads
like the T21). Ondemand may not work on older laptops without Enhanced
SpeedStep due to latency reasons. Anyway, for recent enough Intel CPU,
ondemand is the one recommended for power efficiency (over userspace,
and even over "powersave") by the Intel's kernel developer Arjan van
de Ven"

-- 
Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals (RainCT)
Free Software Developer       363DEAE3



From danielhollocher at gmail.com  Wed Sep 29 21:05:38 2010
From: danielhollocher at gmail.com (Daniel Hollocher)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 17:05:38 -0400
Subject: ondemand vs conservative
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinG5-tiLGS9pYhG_pn0ZAsasfeqpg0eH2wvYArL@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimNEkabUOJL1Pstr0QP3jKRVG-_iJLCHBu4Yoth@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinG5-tiLGS9pYhG_pn0ZAsasfeqpg0eH2wvYArL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimQYfTYW5pgz2SOAhakhovEtDctehbi6-gD1XsV@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, I saw that.  I think that is also on wikipedia.  So maybe
ondemand is for battery usage.  It would still be nice to have
conservative for plugged in situations, like a desktop.

I did try to google first, I just didn't see a clear answer.

Dan

On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals
<siegfried at gevatter.com> wrote:
> Hey,
>
> Google gives me this:
> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_make_use_of_Dynamic_Frequency_Scaling
>
> "The ondemand (available since 2.6.10) and conservative (since 2.6.12)
> are governors based on in kernel implementations of CPU scaling
> algorithms: they scale the CPU frequencies according to the needs
> (like does the userspace frequency scaling daemons, but in kernel).
> They differs in the way they scale up and down. The ondemand governor
> switches to the highest frequency immediately when there is load,
> while the conservative governor increases frequency step by step.
> Likewise they behave the other way round for stepping down frequency
> when the CPU is idle. The conservative governor is good for battery
> powered environments on AMD64 (but may not work on older ThinkPads
> like the T21). Ondemand may not work on older laptops without Enhanced
> SpeedStep due to latency reasons. Anyway, for recent enough Intel CPU,
> ondemand is the one recommended for power efficiency (over userspace,
> and even over "powersave") by the Intel's kernel developer Arjan van
> de Ven"
>
> --
> Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals (RainCT)
> Free Software Developer       363DEAE3
>



-- 
"I'm not judgmental, I'm just excited about your quest for self improvement"



From shanepatrickfagan at ubuntu.com  Wed Sep 29 21:17:57 2010
From: shanepatrickfagan at ubuntu.com (Shane Fagan)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:17:57 +0100
Subject: ondemand vs conservative
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimQYfTYW5pgz2SOAhakhovEtDctehbi6-gD1XsV@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimNEkabUOJL1Pstr0QP3jKRVG-_iJLCHBu4Yoth@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinG5-tiLGS9pYhG_pn0ZAsasfeqpg0eH2wvYArL@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimQYfTYW5pgz2SOAhakhovEtDctehbi6-gD1XsV@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1285795077.2118.1.camel@u0>

Well we could do a preference mode in the power manager or something...

--fagan

On Wed, 2010-09-29 at 17:05 -0400, Daniel Hollocher wrote:
> Yeah, I saw that.  I think that is also on wikipedia.  So maybe
> ondemand is for battery usage.  It would still be nice to have
> conservative for plugged in situations, like a desktop.
> 
> I did try to google first, I just didn't see a clear answer.
> 
> Dan
> 
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals
> <siegfried at gevatter.com> wrote:
> > Hey,
> >
> > Google gives me this:
> > http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_make_use_of_Dynamic_Frequency_Scaling
> >
> > "The ondemand (available since 2.6.10) and conservative (since 2.6.12)
> > are governors based on in kernel implementations of CPU scaling
> > algorithms: they scale the CPU frequencies according to the needs
> > (like does the userspace frequency scaling daemons, but in kernel).
> > They differs in the way they scale up and down. The ondemand governor
> > switches to the highest frequency immediately when there is load,
> > while the conservative governor increases frequency step by step.
> > Likewise they behave the other way round for stepping down frequency
> > when the CPU is idle. The conservative governor is good for battery
> > powered environments on AMD64 (but may not work on older ThinkPads
> > like the T21). Ondemand may not work on older laptops without Enhanced
> > SpeedStep due to latency reasons. Anyway, for recent enough Intel CPU,
> > ondemand is the one recommended for power efficiency (over userspace,
> > and even over "powersave") by the Intel's kernel developer Arjan van
> > de Ven"
> >
> > --
> > Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals (RainCT)
> > Free Software Developer       363DEAE3
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "I'm not judgmental, I'm just excited about your quest for self improvement"
> 





From lists at janc.be  Thu Sep 30 01:08:14 2010
From: lists at janc.be (Jan Claeys)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 03:08:14 +0200
Subject: cdrtools vs. cdrkit (was: brainstorming for UDS-N - Package
	Selection and Defaults)
In-Reply-To: <4CA24638.5010000@canonical.com>
References: <4CA24638.5010000@canonical.com>
Message-ID: <1285808894.3989.5203.camel@saeko>

Directing this to ubuntu-devel-discuss as it's not really a technical
issue (yet)...

Op dinsdag 28-09-2010 om 21:47 uur [tijdzone +0200], schreef Allison
Randal:
> The Package Selection and Defaults track is about choosing the
> best-of-breed packages (applications, libraries, etc), a common task
> across all editions of Ubuntu. It includes considering the viability
> of up-and-coming new software, the decline of end-of-life packages,
> the risks and gains of upgrades and migrations. 

I would like to suggest we re-evaluate 'cdrtools' as a replacement for
'cdrkit', as the former seems to fix a lot of bugs in the latter...
(And having to point people to a PPA to get a working CD or DVD drive
isn't exactly good for people's first experience with Ubuntu!)

In the past there were issues with licensing & copyright, but it seems
like these _might_ be solved in cdrtools 3.0 (released in June 2010) as
upstream claims that most code in it is now CDDL-licensed (seems like
only mkisofs and libhfs_iso are still GPL).
And in case mkisofs is still an issue, would it make sense to only
distribute the other tools?


-- 
Jan Claeys




From daniel.blueman at gmail.com  Thu Sep 30 13:47:02 2010
From: daniel.blueman at gmail.com (Daniel J Blueman)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:47:02 +0100
Subject: maverick radeon 6.13.2 SRU?
Message-ID: <AANLkTimaxUTaaR4qoReqJ7P36eipEmnQs5gtyWYJMD3-@mail.gmail.com>

What is the consensus an SRU for the radeon 6.13.2 Xorg driver in Maverick?

http://lists.x.org/archives/xorg-driver-ati/2010-September/017206.html

It is probably too late to ship with the media, so is eligible for a
post-release update, right?
-- 
Daniel J Blueman



From jonathan at ubuntu.com  Thu Sep 30 14:14:45 2010
From: jonathan at ubuntu.com (Jonathan Carter (highvoltage))
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 10:14:45 -0400
Subject: Brainstorming for UDS-N - Edubuntu
Message-ID: <4CA49B55.8090308@ubuntu.com>

Hi Ubuntu Developers

(snip original very, very long e-mail about Edubuntu originally typed)

Here are some ideas we've been discussing in Edubuntu for Natty and
Natty+1. They probably won't fit in to one single Ubuntu track, so I
opened a new thread on this list (hope that's ok). They aren't all
intended to be implemented and some ideas will most certainly require a
lot of planning and discussion.

We've never had a shortage of ideas before, usually just a shortage of
people to implement them. Having said that, additional ideas are always
welcome and this list will probably grow a bit in the lead-up to UDS.

=== Installer ===

 * More options for desktop environments
 * More LTSP options for LTSP options screen
 * Fix delays caused in installer by installing almost all available
Ubuntu language packs, then removing almost all of them again except for
the one that the user chose
 * New Ubiquity slideshow

=== Edubuntu Server ===

 * Create meta-package that could be used on ubuntu-server that installs
and if possible, configures edu-webapps
 * Test latest moodle packaging efforts done in Debian and sync
 * Assist Schooltool team early in release to get final remaining Zope
dependencies in the archives
 * Take a new look at central authentication in Ubuntu and how it can be
simplified, in particular the work done by Opensys
 * Investigate other potential server side apps and tools and find a
better way to deliver them (web apps are a pain)

== Edubuntu Artwork ===

 * Update the breathe-icon-theme to remove old (brown) Ubuntu references
and make it more modern, make panel icons more appropriate and in line
with Ubuntu artwork, while maintaining some playfulness
 * Refresh Edubuntu colours and update GTK theme, plymouth theme, GDM
login, etc to be more consistent, fix current artwork bugs

== Edubuntu Documentation ==

 * Edubuntu 11.04 installation guide, release notes, release announcement
 * Edubuntu LTSP Tips and Tricks Document
 * "Glue documentation" between upstream documentation for Edubuntu for
tools such as Pessulus, Sabayon, iTalc, Nanny, etc. Explain Edubuntu
specific differences.
 * More instructional videos on YouTube, make better use of the awesome
YouTube community that have already created a bunch of screencasts,
feature videos on website/planet.

== Edubuntu Desktop ==

 * Zeitgeist admin integration, allow administrators to get summaries of
what users have been up to
 * Qimo Gnome session with desktop-profiles
 * Sugar session
 * Remove ltsp-live from menus and add it to boot options when choosing
installer-only/gnome-session

== Edubuntu Meta ===

 * Possibly include one or more of the following: pencil, geogebra,
pdfmod, new italc, openspell [needs-packaging], calibre, freeciv,
lybniz, melting, linthesia, gimpbox [needs-packaging], ttf-sil-andika,
stellarium, planetarium, celestian
 * Replace scribus with scribus-ng
 * Fix depends for qcad-doc on qt3-assistant
 * Work with Kubuntu to fix kde-edu dependencies, currently an entire
KDE session is installed on Edubuntu that we don't really want since
it's not configured at all

== Edubuntu website ==

 * Feature our users prominently, show the world where Edubuntu is used
with photos, stories and videos
 * Add an Edubuntu marketplace, showing where Edubuntu support and
services can be found, including companies that sell pre-installed
Edubuntu systems such as Zareason and System76 (discuss with Canonical
folk at UDS)

-Jonathan



From psusi at cfl.rr.com  Thu Sep 30 16:32:45 2010
From: psusi at cfl.rr.com (Phillip Susi)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:32:45 -0400
Subject: ondemand vs conservative
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimQYfTYW5pgz2SOAhakhovEtDctehbi6-gD1XsV@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimNEkabUOJL1Pstr0QP3jKRVG-_iJLCHBu4Yoth@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinG5-tiLGS9pYhG_pn0ZAsasfeqpg0eH2wvYArL@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimQYfTYW5pgz2SOAhakhovEtDctehbi6-gD1XsV@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CA4BBAD.1040708@cfl.rr.com>

On 9/29/2010 5:05 PM, Daniel Hollocher wrote:
> Yeah, I saw that.  I think that is also on wikipedia.  So maybe
> ondemand is for battery usage.  It would still be nice to have
> conservative for plugged in situations, like a desktop.
> 
> I did try to google first, I just didn't see a clear answer.

Conservative is supposed to save more power by keeping the frequency
lower.  Which one is used should make little difference to a cpu bound
benchmark since both will end up at the max frequency before long.  The
ondemand should be slightly better since it will hit the max frequency
faster.



From danielhollocher at gmail.com  Thu Sep 30 21:01:36 2010
From: danielhollocher at gmail.com (Daniel Hollocher)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 17:01:36 -0400
Subject: ondemand vs conservative
In-Reply-To: <4CA4BBAD.1040708@cfl.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimNEkabUOJL1Pstr0QP3jKRVG-_iJLCHBu4Yoth@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinG5-tiLGS9pYhG_pn0ZAsasfeqpg0eH2wvYArL@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimQYfTYW5pgz2SOAhakhovEtDctehbi6-gD1XsV@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CA4BBAD.1040708@cfl.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=6xquuFU_qdEWJQTy7Ja0Msyf+diTQ+oYGetQe@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks folks,
It does sound like it is just a hardware specific bug.  I will take
this upstream.

Dan

On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Phillip Susi <psusi at cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> On 9/29/2010 5:05 PM, Daniel Hollocher wrote:
>> Yeah, I saw that.  I think that is also on wikipedia.  So maybe
>> ondemand is for battery usage.  It would still be nice to have
>> conservative for plugged in situations, like a desktop.
>>
>> I did try to google first, I just didn't see a clear answer.
>
> Conservative is supposed to save more power by keeping the frequency
> lower.  Which one is used should make little difference to a cpu bound
> benchmark since both will end up at the max frequency before long.  The
> ondemand should be slightly better since it will hit the max frequency
> faster.
>



-- 
"I'm not judgmental, I'm just excited about your quest for self improvement"



