[ubuntu-studio-devel] Thank YoUbuntu Studio

Peter Reppert preppert at gmail.com
Mon Sep 24 13:54:59 UTC 2018 

I've been an Ubuntu Studio user for a long time and had no clue things were
so dire, although I was aware of the burnout problem in OS projects in
general.  It sounds like a new - development path? - would be worth
considering even if all roles were filled.  I'm so new to all of this I
don't even understand why vanilla Ubuntu wouldn't support pro audio out of
the box by now.  Wouldn't that be the simplest solution?  Is the fork too
big of a departure to merge back or  otherwise combine efforts?
   I have never hacked an operating system, and can't imagine getting
involved in such a big project in my spare time, which ironically, I like
to use to create things...using Ubuntu Studio.  I am guessing a fair number
of people dedicating hours to this have paid a big opportunity cost not
creating artwork so they could help other users.  I finally got around to
making a modest contribution through documentation, but that pales in
comparison to all the great effort that has gone into this project
(features, bug fixes, security patches).  So, a heartfelt thank you and may
the best aspects of Ubuntu Studio carry forth in some way, shape, or form.

Pete

On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 8:35 AM <
ubuntu-studio-devel-request at lists.ubuntu.com> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re:  Some thoughts, frustrations, and considerations. (Len Ovens)
>    2. Re:  Some thoughts, frustrations, and considerations.
>       (Thomas Pfundt)
>    3. Re:  Some thoughts, frustrations, and considerations.
>       (Hank Stanglow)
>    4. Re:  Some thoughts, frustrations, and considerations.
>       (Ralf Mardorf)
>    5. Re:  Some thoughts, (Off Topic) (Hank Stanglow)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 14:37:37 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Len Ovens <len at ovenwerks.net>
> To: Ubuntu Studio Development <ubuntu-studio-devel at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Some thoughts, frustrations, and
>         considerations.
> Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1809231358041.6589 at scott.cbbs.org>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> On Sun, 23 Sep 2018, ttoine wrote:
>
> > involved (MOTU and other people like that for Ubuntu). More, in some
> open source
> > projects, only committers can vote on strategic decisions, and it's bad
> when they
> > ignore theirs users or don't understand a specific emerging use of their
> project.
> > That's why many open source project have bad UI/UX, and often, bad
> communication.
> > I can't remember how much time someone answered to me in IRC "learn how
> to code
> > and do it"...
>
> Yes and no. As an Ardour dev, I have added a lot of stuff that is not
> useful to me. On the other hand, there are users or just people who like
> to comment, that have ideas that really don't make sense or that would be
> bad for the project or really can't be done without rewriting the whole
> project. When one of these people is insistant that their pet want gets
> added and won't leave you alone. There is a point of "no I won't add that,
> build a copy and add it yourself". even as someone who commits to Ardour
> frequently I still don't have a lot fo vote in it's direction ;)
>
> > Engineers and technicians don't care that much about their operating
> system look
> > and feel: they have the head in their applications. They are just
> looking for a
> > very stable operating system and good devices drivers. Providing a slick
> dark
> > theme and some nice backgrounds, a setup assistant, and too much
> pre-installed
> > applications is not anymore what people want. The current need is a
> lightweight,
> > clean install, and then they just add the few applications they use in
> their
> > workflow. This is where AVLinux, KXStudio, or even a vanilla Ubuntu with
> a few
> > modifications (my current choice) are good enough for those who can
> follow a
> > howto :-)
>
> While vanilla is much better than it was... well, it's not my favourite
> still. However, point taken.
>
> > By the way, let's speak a bit about the beginnings of the Ubuntu Studio
> journey.
> > At the origin (I was there...) Ubuntu Studio was a wiki page for vanilla
> Ubuntu,
>
> I came along well after that. (there was a text based installed when I
> showed up)
>
> > Regarding the project name, sometimes, I have the feeling that the name
> "Ubuntu
> > Studio" was a good idea and a bad idea at the same time. In the past, it
> gave a
>
> I remember, but I honestly don't remember how I felt at the time. Working
> with Ubuntu has not been easy. releases are based on other things than
> audio and as such we have ended up with releases just before major audio
> app releases or just before a significant bug fix (jackd comes to
> mind). This has made Studio instantly out of date. Running a PPA with just
> metas, an install applet and updates would allow keeping up with such
> thing much easier.
>
> So why not use kx ppa? Some his utilities (cadence) make trouble shooting
> very hard on IRC or email. (controls current state is because of that)
>
> > I stepped down from the project after Ubuntu 10.04 for two reasons: I
> became a
> > father (and it means less time available), and I disagreed with the
> direction of
> > the project at the time (particularly, the will to add as much packages
> as
> > possible and focus energy on changing the desktop environment, instead of
> > improving drivers and overall stability).
>
> That has (or had) changed. Many packages were removed and the installer
> had a module added that allowed choosing which apps to actually install.
> So it was possible to have an audio only (no graphics/video apps) and not
> include non-used apps even in audio.
>
> > In my humble opinion, an active website, with a dedicated forum, with
> section
> > like "Audio", "Video", or "3D", welcoming any users of any Debian/Ubuntu
> > derivative, would have been a key to create an active community. But
> because of
>
> There are linux audio users email lists and formums and they are not doing
> so well these days either. The linux audio website is suffering from the
> same dev/maintainer burnout.
>
> > There is something we must not forget: nowadays it has never been so
> easy to
> > install a Debian based Linux distribution like Ubuntu, and then
> add/change a few
> > things to use it as a very good audio or video workstation. Most people
> actually
>
> There some good parts to this too. Having people asking for help about OS
> related things would automatically go to the flavour they installed rather
> than our almost empty IRC channel.
>
> > Whatever is the decision of the current team, to continue or to stop the
> project,
> > be sure there is no bad decision. Projects start, live, and die. Even if
> you
> > would choose to stop Ubuntu Studio, parts of it will be used each time
> someone
> > record music with a Debian based Linux distribution. This is a big
> legacy :-)
>
> I think I will distribute ubuntustudio-controls under another name as
> well. Just to keep it alive if all else fails... and to make it more
> usable to those who are not using ubuntu.
>
> --
> Len Ovens
> www.ovenwerks.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 22:24:50 +0000
> From: Thomas Pfundt <captain-tux at protonmail.ch>
> To: Ubuntu Studio Development <ubuntu-studio-devel at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Some thoughts, frustrations, and
>         considerations.
> Message-ID:
>
> <DQ7pcnZ5p3gBe6o7MTACBnB0ZAfGwUtwD9iH6eMqCmPqLar4ZJKAqo7_iJt5E4BuDrwBaa1IZCUQPcYC8GACaZik--I6951qrirvAcP1WQQ=@
> protonmail.ch>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Hi Erich and everyone else reading,
>
> -‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> On Friday, September 21, 2018 5:55 PM, Erich Eickmeyer wrote:
> > My proposal is to keep Ubuntu Studio's ISO as Xfce, but to develop
> > metapackages that bolt Ubuntu Studio on to an existing install of
> > another flavor.
>
> I'm going to get right to the point - without probably fully understanding
> all the implications of such a decision, I think this is a great idea and
> have thought so since it first came up in one of the meetings.
>
> Besides of what Erich already mentioned, I mainly see the advantage of
> offering users a simple way to turn their running installation into a
> media-creation system without having to go through the hassle of completely
> wiping and reinstalling a different derivative.
>
> As far as I understand, it could even allow for using an Ubuntu Vanilla
> installation, turning it into a pseudo Ubuntu Studio system and getting up
> to five years of security patches, which might be useful for largely
> unadministered set-and-forget systems in institutions and such.
>
> >From a user-experience perspective, I suppose it's a lucrative selling
> point to offer those features without forcing a specific DE. That way,
> every user could choose one that fits their needs best. I know that Len had
> some specific criteria for why he chose Plasma as the alternative DE, but I
> had the "joy" of being forced to work with the new Kubuntu for a couple of
> weeks on the side and it's just not my personal favourite, but that of
> course doesn't mean that it's not perfectly suited for some other peoples'
> workflows.
>
> After our last meeting, I had a very brief talk with Eylul and would be
> willing to take over at least her PR-related duties, since I've done this
> before and would consider myself competent enough, if it helps keeping
> everyones' backs free on that part. Unfortunately though, also working two
> jobs at the moment, I don't feel comfortable making any promises of taking
> on the more technical tasks that are so essential to the project right now,
> probably only hurting progress by doing so.
>
> Maybe taking one step back and rethinking the direction of the project is
> a good idea. There's no point in chasing something that can't be reached at
> the moment when that time and energy can be spent making something else
> reachable. Anyway, I'll be here for any considerations.
>
>
> Best regards,
> Thomas
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 16:09:33 -0700
> From: Hank Stanglow <stanglow at yandex.com>
> To: ubuntu-studio-devel at lists.ubuntu.com
> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Some thoughts, frustrations, and
>         considerations.
> Message-ID: <0aff9579-fc55-cc64-e655-ef244cda8088 at yandex.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Hi. I have been following Ubuntu Studio since 2011 and it holds a
> special place in my heart. I am sad to see development slow down, but I
> also feel like changes in the way software is packaged and distributed
> made this inevitable.
>
> I stopped using Ubuntu Studio a couple years ago for a few reasons:
> there were some annoying bugs in XFCE/Thunar, I wanted more recent
> packages, and I wanted a better experience using non-gtk tools.
>
> I do multimedia work and that's why I chose Ubuntu Studio. Having a good
> audio setup was important, but I also needed drawing and video tools as
> well. IMO, the best and most available FOSS tools for drawing and video
> are Krita and KdenLive, which were always buggy on gtk-based systems.
> However, with growing emphasis on Snaps and Flatpacks, software is
> becoming both distribution and desktop environment agnostic. These days
> a Linux user can get the best of everything regardless of their
> distribution of choice. And that, I think, makes me wonder if I will
> ever need Ubuntu Studio again. Even if Ubuntu Studio had a vibrant team
> to keep up this distribution the question "is it needed?" would still
> persist. Honestly, I don't even use KX Studio for audio anymore, so this
> is not a problem specific to Ubuntu Studio.
>
> Everyone should feel great about the role Ubuntu Studio played in moving
> GNU/Linux/FOSS forward. Linux and Ubuntu are better than ever for
> multimedia artists like myself.
>
> Thanks for everything!
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 04:45:32 +0200
> From: Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf at alice-dsl.net>
> To: ubuntu-studio-devel at lists.ubuntu.com
> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Some thoughts, frustrations, and
>         considerations.
> Message-ID: <20180924044532.69db20b1 at archlinux>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Sun, 23 Sep 2018 16:09:33 -0700, Hank Stanglow wrote:
> >growing emphasis on Snaps
>
> It's just a growing hype from a minority of Ubuntu developers
> involved in snap development.
>
> "Search thousands of snaps used by millions of people across 50 Linux
> distributions"
>
> https://snapcraft.io/store
>
> There's a reason for the missing pro-audio software, due to the
> container approach, it requires special interfaces to e.g. share the
> sound server by different apps.
>
>
> https://docs.snapcraft.io/core/install
>
> Which are those 50 distros?
>
> Arch isn't one of those, it's a misleading claim!
>
>
> https://docs.snapcraft.io/core/install-arch-linux
>
> The installation instructions are horrible!
>
>
> "Warning: AUR helpers are not supported by Arch Linux." -
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AUR_helpers
>
> "Arch Linux related mailing lists and other official Arch Linux support
> channels aren't an appropriate place to request help with snaps on Arch
> Linux." - https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Snapd#Support
>
>
> That something is "available", in the case of Arch Linux by something
> comparable to a PPA, doesn't mean that it's supported, or that the
> distro even supports the desired infrastructure.
>
> From the PKGBUILD's ./configure: "--disable-apparmor" -
> https://aur.archlinux.org/cgit/aur.git/tree/PKGBUILD?h=snapd
>
> But even if you stay with Ubuntu and snaps, it's not easy to use it for
> pro-audio software, if possible at all.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 21:33:47 -0700
> From: Hank Stanglow <stanglow at yandex.com>
> To: ubuntu-studio-devel at lists.ubuntu.com
> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Some thoughts, (Off Topic)
> Message-ID: <4452fbd7-eb50-ecce-9561-2f0ee5975b72 at yandex.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> On 09/23/2018 07:45 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > On Sun, 23 Sep 2018 16:09:33 -0700, Hank Stanglow wrote:
> >> growing emphasis on Snaps
> > But even if you stay with Ubuntu and snaps, it's not easy to use it for
> > pro-audio software, if possible at all.
> >
> The point I was trying to make is the distribution model is changing.
> Flathub has a lot of options, and I've seen quite a few projects go for
> the self contained "Appimage" model (LMMS for example). Almost half the
> software I use for multimedia comes containerized rather than from a
> traditional repository model -- that goes for an Ardour subscription as
> well.
>
> And there is also the WINE effect. It works really well these days. In a
> lot of cases you can get a Windows "hassle free" audio experience in a
> Linux OS, and you don't need a custom distribution for WINE.
>
> This is just my experience and I can't speak for Ubuntu Studio users.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of ubuntu-studio-devel Digest, Vol 136, Issue 14
> ****************************************************
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