[CoLoCo] LONG POST - Transcript of "sudo tutorial" chat in #ubuntu-doc

[Ryan Taylor]

found this:

http://xkcd.com/149/

It might help explain the "power of sudo" to those new Linux users...




On Nov 29, 2007 8:26 PM, Brett Trigg <brett_trigg at comcast.net> wrote:

>  Hi There,
>     Here is the advice I gained from the #ubuntu-doc forum on our "sudo
> tutorial" idea.
>     I apologize for the length of this post, but I think it contains good
> info throughout.
>     Feel free to lay the smack down on me for not editing.  Call it "full
> disclosure"  :-)
>
> (07:23:55 PM) *btrigg:* Hi There. I'm on the Colorado LoCo and we have
> been discussing a user-friendly and educational way to confront this issue:
> http://ubuntuforums.org/announcement.php?a=54
> (07:24:05 PM) *btrigg:* An idea we had was a sort of "sudo tutorial": A
> graphical tutorial on fresh-installs that pops up and details the power and
> danger of running commands as root prior to allowing any root commands to be
> run.
> (07:24:18 PM) *btrigg:* I was referred here from #ubuntu-motu
> (07:24:29 PM) *btrigg:* Is this the place to find a champion for this
> idea?
> (07:25:40 PM) *somerville32:* btrigg, We already discuss the issue in the
> shipped documentation
> (07:26:23 PM) *oldmanstan:* btrigg: your goal is to make the issue real
> obvious to new ppl?
> (07:26:27 PM) *btrigg:* Understood. But our thought is that RTFM isn't
> really that user-friendly.
> (07:26:30 PM) *btrigg:* Yes.
> (07:27:14 PM) *mpt left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed
> out)).*
> (07:27:20 PM) somerville32: Unfortunately, there is no way to fully
> protect the user even if we forced them to try and read it
> (07:27:22 PM) *btrigg:* Docs are great if you are looking for something.
> If you don't know what you don't know, then docs aren't really that
> effective.
> (07:27:51 PM) *somerville32:* btrigg, You might want to look for the
> people looking on the Welcome centre specification
> (07:27:53 PM) *btrigg:* Agreed; we cannot save everyone from themselves.
> (07:27:59 PM) somerville32: s/looking/working
> (07:29:06 PM) *btrigg:* Ok, thanks, I appreciate that.
> (07:30:36 PM) *btrigg:* The idea is that if we, as Ubuntu, provide
> education, then the folks who choose to ignore it are out of luck. But we
> can say that we do educate our users instead of just letting them hang
> themselves or, worse, not letting them have enough rope to try.
> (07:31:53 PM) somerville32: Sadly, I think most people would close to
> pop-up anyhow or be scarred away
> (07:32:02 PM) somerville32: First thing they see when their new OS boots
> up:
> (07:32:08 PM) somerville32: "DO NOT RUN THE FOLLOWING COMMANDS OR ELSE:"
> (07:32:16 PM) *btrigg:* :-)
> (07:32:24 PM) *btrigg:* Well...not like that exactly..
> (07:32:28 PM) *btrigg:* More like...
> (07:33:03 PM) *btrigg:* "As with any OS, there are dangers with installing
> software from unknown sources"
> (07:33:06 PM) *btrigg:* Etc.
> (07:33:29 PM) *btrigg:* Please enter the root password to confirm you've
> read this and continue installing.
> (07:33:35 PM) *btrigg:* That kind of thing.
> (07:33:43 PM) somerville32: lol
> (07:33:54 PM) somerville32: We tell them not to randomly enter their root
> password and then we get them to do it :P
> (07:34:01 PM) *btrigg:* lol
> (07:34:16 PM) *btrigg:* Well...this is still within the comfy confines of
> their own system.
> (07:34:33 PM) *btrigg:* And we'd give them an out for that.
> (07:34:53 PM) *btrigg:* Have them enter the password and then choose to
> continue or abort.
> (07:35:12 PM) *btrigg:* Either way, the tutorial would be gone for good
> going forward.
> (07:36:28 PM) *btrigg:* You see where we're going with this, though,
> right?
> (07:36:55 PM) *btrigg:* Somewhere between man sudo and "allow or deny".
> (07:37:54 PM) somerville32: "You attempted to close this window. Allow or
> deny?"
> (07:38:21 PM) *btrigg:* Right. The "You're an idiot. We know better"
> Extreme.
> (07:38:38 PM) *btrigg:* And the RTFM extreme on the other end.
> (07:38:54 PM) *btrigg:* Somewhere between those two.
> (07:39:52 PM) *btrigg:* We're looking at the: "It's your system. Here's
> how to use it wisely" approach.
> (07:40:29 PM) *btrigg:* If we came up with the text for it to be reviewed
> would that help?
> (07:41:19 PM) somerville32: Well, we can include it in the documentation
> (07:41:33 PM) somerville32: :)
> (07:41:45 PM) *btrigg:* Great, thanks!
> (07:41:52 PM) kgoetz: i dont think more popups will go down well with
> upstream/s. makin teh 'enter your password' dialguges more usful would be
> better imo
> (07:42:20 PM) *btrigg:* kgoetz: There's an idea
> (07:42:38 PM) *btrigg:* Like maybe context-sensitive warnings?
> (07:43:07 PM) *btrigg:* i.e. "rm -rf" can cause harm to your system type
> of stuff?
> (07:43:22 PM) somerville32: lol
> (07:43:45 PM) *btrigg:* What? Why is that funny?
> (07:44:03 PM) kgoetz: deja vu
> (07:44:06 PM) kgoetz: just reading this
> http://ubuntuforums.org/announcement.php?a=54 ;)
> (07:44:13 PM) *btrigg:* Ah...yes.
> (07:44:17 PM) kgoetz: "rm -rf /"
> (07:44:22 PM) kgoetz: *grin*
> (07:44:30 PM) *btrigg:* That's what started this whole discussion in our
> LoCo.
> (07:44:56 PM) *btrigg:* But you can see why we could be shooting ourselves
> in the foot with this, yes?
> (07:45:14 PM) *btrigg:* We may not have the virus issue, but social
> engineering...that affects all of us.
> (07:45:29 PM) *somerville32:* btrigg, How does Windows deal with it?
> (07:45:32 PM) *oldmanstan:* btrigg: i agree
> (07:45:46 PM) *btrigg:* somerville32: lol
> (07:45:48 PM) kgoetz: problem is people get used to clicking 'close', and
> the more you ask them to, the less chance there is they'll do anything else
> (07:45:50 PM) *btrigg:* "Allow or Deny"
> (07:46:05 PM) kgoetz: windows's i've used havent *heh*
> (07:46:24 PM) oldmanstan: the key is people have to realize that they need
> to read at least a little about their new os
> (07:46:41 PM) *michael_mac [n=michael_ at adsl-4-54-25.bhm.bellsouth.net]
> entered the room.*
> (07:46:42 PM) oldmanstan: what about doing a screencast on "the dangers of
> sudo", talk to alan pope in #ubuntu-uk and those kids
> (07:47:00 PM) *btrigg:* oldmanstan: Agreed. But really..who reads docs?
> (07:47:02 PM) *jgoguen left the room (quit: "'rm -rf /' will solve all
> your problems...").*
> (07:47:15 PM) oldmanstan: yeah, that's why a screencast might be good
> (07:47:17 PM) *btrigg:* oldmanstan: Awesome, thanks.
> (07:47:37 PM) oldmanstan: then throw it in people's desktops by default
> with a label saying "click here first!!!" or something, haha
> (07:47:42 PM) *michael_mac left the room (quit: Client Quit).*
> (07:47:47 PM) *btrigg:* We are just looking to give some education. Maybe
> (pray) that it will reinforce the idea of reading the fine manual.
> (07:47:58 PM) *btrigg:* lol. Yes. Great idea, though!
> (07:48:15 PM) oldmanstan: yeah, i agree with your mission 100%, it's a
> tough task though
> (07:48:19 PM) *btrigg:* And...it can showcase the multimedia spiffiness of
> Ubuntu.
> (07:48:29 PM) *btrigg:* Great. Thanks.
> (07:48:31 PM) oldmanstan: indeed
> (07:48:35 PM) ***kgoetz finds the forums post a bit alarmist
> (07:48:43 PM) *btrigg:* Yes. It is tough. But I think it's the right thing
> to do.
> (07:48:44 PM) oldmanstan: add it to the lovely nelson mandela video
> (07:48:47 PM) kgoetz: for thos who can download vidoe of course
> (07:49:11 PM) *btrigg:* It is a bit alarmist, but I also think it has the
> chance to become an "I told you so" topic.
> (07:49:27 PM) oldmanstan: we could get it preinstalled with the distro
> possibly
> (07:49:37 PM) *btrigg:* Yes. That's the idea.
> (07:49:51 PM) *btrigg:* The "Click Me First" idea is wonderful.
> (07:50:00 PM) oldmanstan: it's a balancing act between scaring the crap
> outta people and informing them
> (07:50:06 PM) *btrigg:* Yes.
> (07:50:16 PM) *btrigg:* Windows just assumes they are stupid.
> (07:50:19 PM) *btrigg:* We are not that.
> (07:50:38 PM) *btrigg:* That's why people like Macs and Linux. Freedom.
> (07:51:12 PM) kgoetz: macs for freedom? bs.
> (07:51:13 PM) *btrigg:* But with freedom come responsibility. And if
> someone doesn't say: "Here is one of them. You can find more here...", then
> they can be scarred for like.
> (07:51:15 PM) kgoetz: but thats an aside
> (07:51:35 PM) *btrigg:* Yes. But that's a reason whether we like/believe
> it or not.
> (07:51:45 PM) kgoetz: i'll point out that video is huge, and the discs are
> squeezed for space as is
> (07:52:00 PM) *btrigg:* Flash video? Should be smaller?
> (07:52:09 PM) oldmanstan: or dump the mandela video
> (07:52:38 PM) *btrigg:* Or a Presentation file?
> (07:53:05 PM) oldmanstan: ogg videos aren't "huge", the mandela one that
> we install is only 3.5 mb and it's a minute and a half
> (07:53:33 PM) kgoetz: so 3 minutes of video is 1% of the cdrom.
> (07:53:44 PM) oldmanstan: like i said, dump the mandela video
> (07:54:17 PM) ***kgoetz mutters about vim-tiny's presense on the cd.
> perhaps that carp can go
> (07:54:23 PM) *btrigg:* lol
> (07:54:27 PM) oldmanstan: and make it a minute and a half, kind of a
> "don't do drugs kids" warning thing and our net space on the disc is zero
> (07:54:39 PM) oldmanstan: haha
> (07:55:00 PM) oldmanstan: even if it wasn't on the cd though, it could
> still be featured prominantly
> (07:55:08 PM) kgoetz: i still think the improving dialges holds merit
> (07:55:11 PM) kgoetz: *sp (again :$)
> (07:55:12 PM) oldmanstan: i think more people will watch a video than will
> read a document
> (07:55:21 PM) *btrigg:* Yes. Like a link to a hosted video on the net
> somewhere?
> (07:55:23 PM) kgoetz: depends where said person is located
> (07:55:42 PM) *btrigg:* Subtitles
> (07:55:42 PM) oldmanstan: yeah, it wouldn't have 100% penetration, but it
> would be something
> (07:55:45 PM) kgoetz: (i already have that issue with ubuntu install
> 'extras')
> (07:56:08 PM) oldmanstan: changing the dialogs is definitely a thing to
> bug people about too though
> (07:56:18 PM) *btrigg:* Agreed.
> (07:56:26 PM) oldmanstan: a video could be made easily with minimal
> bureaucracy though
> (07:56:35 PM) *btrigg:* So how do we get this started on our end? Write
> the text?
> (07:57:10 PM) oldmanstan: i would talk to the screencast ppl, i'm not sure
> if they have their own channel, but i know alan pope hangs out in #ubuntu-uk
> and he's in charge of it
> (07:57:15 PM) *kgoetz:* btrigg: email the mailing list with a proposal
> (07:57:16 PM) *btrigg:* I know a guy who does a GREAT Mandela
> impersonation...he could read it. And then we could keep the Mandela aspect
> and still give the safety warning. :-)
> (07:57:28 PM) oldmanstan: lol
> (07:57:29 PM) kgoetz: call it a 'spec' for bonus poits ;)
> (07:57:31 PM) *btrigg:* Just kidding about that. Sorry.
> (07:57:40 PM) *btrigg:* kgoetz: Ok, thanks much again!
> (07:57:41 PM) oldmanstan: kgoetz: good point, people love "specs"
> (07:57:59 PM) kgoetz: oldmanstan: canonicals projects in particular :)
> (07:58:05 PM) oldmanstan: fer sure
> (07:58:29 PM) *btrigg:* Make it a business case type spec? More formal =
> more consideration?
> (07:58:31 PM) oldmanstan: all about the launchpad
> (07:58:42 PM) kgoetz: yep.
> (07:58:42 PM) somerville32: omg, lmao
> (07:58:57 PM) ****somerville32* swats btrigg with a fanny of ubuntu cds
> (07:59:06 PM) *btrigg:* :-)
> (07:59:13 PM) *btrigg:* Ok...so I'm a noob dork.
> (07:59:20 PM) oldmanstan: honestly i would informally approach a couple
> ppl first, and then work on formalizing it
> (07:59:22 PM) *btrigg:* But why smack me?
> (07:59:28 PM) oldmanstan: but that's how i like doin stuff
> (07:59:36 PM) *btrigg:* Ok. And does that work?
> (08:00:15 PM) *btrigg:* brb...bedtime for the nipper. :-)
> (08:02:13 PM) kgoetz: :)
> (08:02:22 PM) ***kgoetz hands over invoice to employer
> (08:02:56 PM) *btrigg:* back
> (08:02:58 PM) *btrigg:* lol
> (08:03:38 PM) *btrigg:* Ok. Well thank you everyone for the input, ideas,
> and advice. I will take this back to our LoCo and we'll go from there.
> (08:04:03 PM) *oldmanstan:* btrigg: #ubuntu-screencasts
> (08:04:07 PM) kgoetz: :) good luck with it
> (08:04:08 PM) oldmanstan: if you decide to go that route
> (08:04:11 PM) oldmanstan: good luck!
>
>
> --
> Ubuntu-us-co mailing list
> Ubuntu-us-co at lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-co
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-co/attachments/20071220/3f429138/attachment-0001.htm