[CoLoCo] LONG POST - Transcript of "sudo tutorial" chat in #ubuntu-doc

[Brett Trigg]

Hi There,
    Here is the advice I gained from the #ubuntu-doc forum on our "sudo 
tutorial" idea.
    I apologize for the length of this post, but I think it contains 
good info throughout.
    Feel free to lay the smack down on me for not editing.  Call it 
"full disclosure"  :-)

(07:23:55 PM) *btrigg:* Hi There. I'm on the Colorado LoCo and we have 
been discussing a user-friendly and educational way to confront this 
issue: http://ubuntuforums.org/announcement.php?a=54
(07:24:05 PM) *btrigg:* An idea we had was a sort of "sudo tutorial": A 
graphical tutorial on fresh-installs that pops up and details the power 
and danger of running commands as root prior to allowing any root 
commands to be run.
(07:24:18 PM) *btrigg:* I was referred here from #ubuntu-motu
(07:24:29 PM) *btrigg:* Is this the place to find a champion for this idea?
(07:25:40 PM) *somerville32:* btrigg, We already discuss the issue in 
the shipped documentation
(07:26:23 PM) *oldmanstan:* btrigg: your goal is to make the issue real 
obvious to new ppl?
(07:26:27 PM) *btrigg:* Understood. But our thought is that RTFM isn't 
really that user-friendly.
(07:26:30 PM) *btrigg:* Yes.
(07:27:14 PM) *mpt left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection 
timed out)).*
(07:27:20 PM) somerville32: Unfortunately, there is no way to fully 
protect the user even if we forced them to try and read it
(07:27:22 PM) *btrigg:* Docs are great if you are looking for something. 
If you don't know what you don't know, then docs aren't really that 
effective.
(07:27:51 PM) *somerville32:* btrigg, You might want to look for the 
people looking on the Welcome centre specification
(07:27:53 PM) *btrigg:* Agreed; we cannot save everyone from themselves.
(07:27:59 PM) somerville32: s/looking/working
(07:29:06 PM) *btrigg:* Ok, thanks, I appreciate that.
(07:30:36 PM) *btrigg:* The idea is that if we, as Ubuntu, provide 
education, then the folks who choose to ignore it are out of luck. But 
we can say that we do educate our users instead of just letting them 
hang themselves or, worse, not letting them have enough rope to try.
(07:31:53 PM) somerville32: Sadly, I think most people would close to 
pop-up anyhow or be scarred away
(07:32:02 PM) somerville32: First thing they see when their new OS boots up:
(07:32:08 PM) somerville32: "DO NOT RUN THE FOLLOWING COMMANDS OR ELSE:"
(07:32:16 PM) *btrigg:* :-)
(07:32:24 PM) *btrigg:* Well...not like that exactly..
(07:32:28 PM) *btrigg:* More like...
(07:33:03 PM) *btrigg:* "As with any OS, there are dangers with 
installing software from unknown sources"
(07:33:06 PM) *btrigg:* Etc.
(07:33:29 PM) *btrigg:* Please enter the root password to confirm you've 
read this and continue installing.
(07:33:35 PM) *btrigg:* That kind of thing.
(07:33:43 PM) somerville32: lol
(07:33:54 PM) somerville32: We tell them not to randomly enter their 
root password and then we get them to do it :P
(07:34:01 PM) *btrigg:* lol
(07:34:16 PM) *btrigg:* Well...this is still within the comfy confines 
of their own system.
(07:34:33 PM) *btrigg:* And we'd give them an out for that.
(07:34:53 PM) *btrigg:* Have them enter the password and then choose to 
continue or abort.
(07:35:12 PM) *btrigg:* Either way, the tutorial would be gone for good 
going forward.
(07:36:28 PM) *btrigg:* You see where we're going with this, though, right?
(07:36:55 PM) *btrigg:* Somewhere between man sudo and "allow or deny".
(07:37:54 PM) somerville32: "You attempted to close this window. Allow 
or deny?"
(07:38:21 PM) *btrigg:* Right. The "You're an idiot. We know better" 
Extreme.
(07:38:38 PM) *btrigg:* And the RTFM extreme on the other end.
(07:38:54 PM) *btrigg:* Somewhere between those two.
(07:39:52 PM) *btrigg:* We're looking at the: "It's your system. Here's 
how to use it wisely" approach.
(07:40:29 PM) *btrigg:* If we came up with the text for it to be 
reviewed would that help?
(07:41:19 PM) somerville32: Well, we can include it in the documentation
(07:41:33 PM) somerville32: :)
(07:41:45 PM) *btrigg:* Great, thanks!
(07:41:52 PM) kgoetz: i dont think more popups will go down well with 
upstream/s. makin teh 'enter your password' dialguges more usful would 
be better imo
(07:42:20 PM) *btrigg:* kgoetz: There's an idea
(07:42:38 PM) *btrigg:* Like maybe context-sensitive warnings?
(07:43:07 PM) *btrigg:* i.e. "rm -rf" can cause harm to your system type 
of stuff?
(07:43:22 PM) somerville32: lol
(07:43:45 PM) *btrigg:* What? Why is that funny?
(07:44:03 PM) kgoetz: deja vu
(07:44:06 PM) kgoetz: just reading this 
http://ubuntuforums.org/announcement.php?a=54 ;)
(07:44:13 PM) *btrigg:* Ah...yes.
(07:44:17 PM) kgoetz: "rm -rf /"
(07:44:22 PM) kgoetz: *grin*
(07:44:30 PM) *btrigg:* That's what started this whole discussion in our 
LoCo.
(07:44:56 PM) *btrigg:* But you can see why we could be shooting 
ourselves in the foot with this, yes?
(07:45:14 PM) *btrigg:* We may not have the virus issue, but social 
engineering...that affects all of us.
(07:45:29 PM) *somerville32:* btrigg, How does Windows deal with it?
(07:45:32 PM) *oldmanstan:* btrigg: i agree
(07:45:46 PM) *btrigg:* somerville32: lol
(07:45:48 PM) kgoetz: problem is people get used to clicking 'close', 
and the more you ask them to, the less chance there is they'll do 
anything else
(07:45:50 PM) *btrigg:* "Allow or Deny"
(07:46:05 PM) kgoetz: windows's i've used havent *heh*
(07:46:24 PM) oldmanstan: the key is people have to realize that they 
need to read at least a little about their new os
(07:46:41 PM) *michael_mac [/n=michael_ at adsl-4-54-25.bhm.bellsouth.net/] 
entered the room.*
(07:46:42 PM) oldmanstan: what about doing a screencast on "the dangers 
of sudo", talk to alan pope in #ubuntu-uk and those kids
(07:47:00 PM) *btrigg:* oldmanstan: Agreed. But really..who reads docs?
(07:47:02 PM) *jgoguen left the room (quit: "'rm -rf /' will solve all 
your problems...").*
(07:47:15 PM) oldmanstan: yeah, that's why a screencast might be good
(07:47:17 PM) *btrigg:* oldmanstan: Awesome, thanks.
(07:47:37 PM) oldmanstan: then throw it in people's desktops by default 
with a label saying "click here first!!!" or something, haha
(07:47:42 PM) *michael_mac left the room (quit: Client Quit).*
(07:47:47 PM) *btrigg:* We are just looking to give some education. 
Maybe (pray) that it will reinforce the idea of reading the fine manual.
(07:47:58 PM) *btrigg:* lol. Yes. Great idea, though!
(07:48:15 PM) oldmanstan: yeah, i agree with your mission 100%, it's a 
tough task though
(07:48:19 PM) *btrigg:* And...it can showcase the multimedia spiffiness 
of Ubuntu.
(07:48:29 PM) *btrigg:* Great. Thanks.
(07:48:31 PM) oldmanstan: indeed
(07:48:35 PM) ***kgoetz finds the forums post a bit alarmist
(07:48:43 PM) *btrigg:* Yes. It is tough. But I think it's the right 
thing to do.
(07:48:44 PM) oldmanstan: add it to the lovely nelson mandela video
(07:48:47 PM) kgoetz: for thos who can download vidoe of course
(07:49:11 PM) *btrigg:* It is a bit alarmist, but I also think it has 
the chance to become an "I told you so" topic.
(07:49:27 PM) oldmanstan: we could get it preinstalled with the distro 
possibly
(07:49:37 PM) *btrigg:* Yes. That's the idea.
(07:49:51 PM) *btrigg:* The "Click Me First" idea is wonderful.
(07:50:00 PM) oldmanstan: it's a balancing act between scaring the crap 
outta people and informing them
(07:50:06 PM) *btrigg:* Yes.
(07:50:16 PM) *btrigg:* Windows just assumes they are stupid.
(07:50:19 PM) *btrigg:* We are not that.
(07:50:38 PM) *btrigg:* That's why people like Macs and Linux. Freedom.
(07:51:12 PM) kgoetz: macs for freedom? bs.
(07:51:13 PM) *btrigg:* But with freedom come responsibility. And if 
someone doesn't say: "Here is one of them. You can find more here...", 
then they can be scarred for like.
(07:51:15 PM) kgoetz: but thats an aside
(07:51:35 PM) *btrigg:* Yes. But that's a reason whether we like/believe 
it or not.
(07:51:45 PM) kgoetz: i'll point out that video is huge, and the discs 
are squeezed for space as is
(07:52:00 PM) *btrigg:* Flash video? Should be smaller?
(07:52:09 PM) oldmanstan: or dump the mandela video
(07:52:38 PM) *btrigg:* Or a Presentation file?
(07:53:05 PM) oldmanstan: ogg videos aren't "huge", the mandela one that 
we install is only 3.5 mb and it's a minute and a half
(07:53:33 PM) kgoetz: so 3 minutes of video is 1% of the cdrom.
(07:53:44 PM) oldmanstan: like i said, dump the mandela video
(07:54:17 PM) ***kgoetz mutters about vim-tiny's presense on the cd. 
perhaps that carp can go
(07:54:23 PM) *btrigg:* lol
(07:54:27 PM) oldmanstan: and make it a minute and a half, kind of a 
"don't do drugs kids" warning thing and our net space on the disc is zero
(07:54:39 PM) oldmanstan: haha
(07:55:00 PM) oldmanstan: even if it wasn't on the cd though, it could 
still be featured prominantly
(07:55:08 PM) kgoetz: i still think the improving dialges holds merit
(07:55:11 PM) kgoetz: *sp (again :$)
(07:55:12 PM) oldmanstan: i think more people will watch a video than 
will read a document
(07:55:21 PM) *btrigg:* Yes. Like a link to a hosted video on the net 
somewhere?
(07:55:23 PM) kgoetz: depends where said person is located
(07:55:42 PM) *btrigg:* Subtitles
(07:55:42 PM) oldmanstan: yeah, it wouldn't have 100% penetration, but 
it would be something
(07:55:45 PM) kgoetz: (i already have that issue with ubuntu install 
'extras')
(07:56:08 PM) oldmanstan: changing the dialogs is definitely a thing to 
bug people about too though
(07:56:18 PM) *btrigg:* Agreed.
(07:56:26 PM) oldmanstan: a video could be made easily with minimal 
bureaucracy though
(07:56:35 PM) *btrigg:* So how do we get this started on our end? Write 
the text?
(07:57:10 PM) oldmanstan: i would talk to the screencast ppl, i'm not 
sure if they have their own channel, but i know alan pope hangs out in 
#ubuntu-uk and he's in charge of it
(07:57:15 PM) *kgoetz:* btrigg: email the mailing list with a proposal
(07:57:16 PM) *btrigg:* I know a guy who does a GREAT Mandela 
impersonation...he could read it. And then we could keep the Mandela 
aspect and still give the safety warning. :-)
(07:57:28 PM) oldmanstan: lol
(07:57:29 PM) kgoetz: call it a 'spec' for bonus poits ;)
(07:57:31 PM) *btrigg:* Just kidding about that. Sorry.
(07:57:40 PM) *btrigg:* kgoetz: Ok, thanks much again!
(07:57:41 PM) oldmanstan: kgoetz: good point, people love "specs"
(07:57:59 PM) kgoetz: oldmanstan: canonicals projects in particular :)
(07:58:05 PM) oldmanstan: fer sure
(07:58:29 PM) *btrigg:* Make it a business case type spec? More formal = 
more consideration?
(07:58:31 PM) oldmanstan: all about the launchpad
(07:58:42 PM) kgoetz: yep.
(07:58:42 PM) somerville32: omg, lmao
(07:58:57 PM) ****somerville32* swats btrigg with a fanny of ubuntu cds
(07:59:06 PM) *btrigg:* :-)
(07:59:13 PM) *btrigg:* Ok...so I'm a noob dork.
(07:59:20 PM) oldmanstan: honestly i would informally approach a couple 
ppl first, and then work on formalizing it
(07:59:22 PM) *btrigg:* But why smack me?
(07:59:28 PM) oldmanstan: but that's how i like doin stuff
(07:59:36 PM) *btrigg:* Ok. And does that work?
(08:00:15 PM) *btrigg:* brb...bedtime for the nipper. :-)
(08:02:13 PM) kgoetz: :)
(08:02:22 PM) ***kgoetz hands over invoice to employer
(08:02:56 PM) *btrigg:* back
(08:02:58 PM) *btrigg:* lol
(08:03:38 PM) *btrigg:* Ok. Well thank you everyone for the input, 
ideas, and advice. I will take this back to our LoCo and we'll go from 
there.
(08:04:03 PM) *oldmanstan:* btrigg: #ubuntu-screencasts
(08:04:07 PM) kgoetz: :) good luck with it
(08:04:08 PM) oldmanstan: if you decide to go that route
(08:04:11 PM) oldmanstan: good luck!

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