Forking (was Ubuntu Under Attack)

['Forum Post]

Scott Wrote: 
> 

> Ever tried Installing Knoppix and then installing a package from one of
> 

> the Debian repositories?  It can get tricky at times. Been there. Done
> that.

> Ubuntu is hardly the only Debian-based distro that has this "problem".
> 

> The same applies to RPM based distros as well.

> 

Knoppix is Knoppix.... its not really meant as an installable distro
even if its used that way by some.  RPM based distro's don't count
either because they don't have a real base.  Mandrivel is the bastard
son of RH ... but suse just uses RPM's and fsck from the real world
outside of Suse specific RPM's usually works unless its statically
linked and then only sometimes.  

> 

> 

> >  This

> > situation is similar to the way in which Gentoo sets up its binaries.
> 

> > The difference is that Gentoo doesn't claim to be part of the Debian
> 

> > community, whereas Ubuntu does.[/color]

> 

> I think Gentoo would be hard pressed to claim to be part of any 

> "community".  Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other distro
> 

> using portage.

> 



VidaLinux not to mention PENtoo et al....  but you are mising the point
I think.  

Gentoo IS a functioning community.  Ask support question on the Gentoo
forum and it will be answered by someone competent pretty quickly, ask
the same question here and most people won't even understand the
question!  

Im not talking rocket science ... say ask about a mail server and
chance is here someone will recommend kmail or evolution and notr even
realise the difference between a mail server and client (for instance) 
and a gentoo specific question concerneing portage would likely be
answered by a developer very quickly too.  



Ubuntu is a them, us and the others distro.  The developers (them) are
sacrosanct and even e.g. questioning the BS sudu policy of Ubuntu will
get a flame war and a thread locked.  Then there are 'the users'  ...
and finally the others are the Debian developers.  end of the day the
users are not in the same community as the developers or the debain
developers.  



> 

> If Ubuntu "worked with" Debian as you desire, I might have to wait
> three 

> years for the next stable release. 

Nope but you would need *real* developers in Ubuntu which are sadly
lacking.... there are plenty of hackers but few real developers from
what I can see and most of them spend their time modifying Gnome apps
to use gtk-sudo ...  *I'll get onto this.  *



The main problem is that they have their own libraries which are not
backwards compatible.  I'm not sure why you need or think you need the
latest version of xterm ... etc. because 90% of the code you run you
never see... sure the latest Gnome/KDE is nice but you can largely have
that at the same time as stable kernel versions etc.  



Can *you* list the advantages of the Ubuntu 2.6.12-9 kernel over the
current 2.6.14-4 at kernel.org or the Debian unstable 2.6.12-9 ?  Can
you explain what is in the Ubuntu kernel you need SO desperately.... ??




> No thanks. That's exactly why I chose Ubuntu. I has all the advantages
> of Debian, without most of the Disadvantages.  Really list them!  

Lets see:  Most or many of the Debian and Gentoo developers are
programmers and package for Debain as well.  Most Ubuntu 'developers'
seem to spend more time as hackers modifying packages to work on
Gentoo.  Fine they are needed too but not exclusively.  Ubuntu couldn't
exist without Debian.... (this will also be expanded) however what
really sucks about Debain and what keeps it back is lack of a proper
forum.  The community is distributed in the mailing lists and so its
inclusive/exclusive more than distro's with well organised forums. 
Unfortunately Ubuntu has inherited this problem too.  These forums are
the worst of any MAJOR distro.  The ratio of questions to answers and
noobies to guru's is astounding.  Gettign an answer to a real question
here is almost impossible unless you bump the post every day for a
month until someone who knows more than a complete noob finally sees
the post and even then you need to write in baby language ... you can't
just write the question succinctly like you could on the Gentoo forum. 






Random found on Gentoo Forum

"

Hi,



After some upgrades I get in amule:

Code:

$ amule


Code:
--------------------
    Fatal Error: Mismatch between the program and library build versions detected.

  The library used 2.6 (no debug,ANSI,compiler with C++ ABI 102,wx containers,compatible with 2.4),

  and your program used 2.6 (no debug,ANSI,compiler with C++ ABI 1002,wx containers,compatible with 2.4).

  Aborted

  
--------------------




Can someone tell me what's causing this? "



Can you imagine asking that succinctly and getting the answer here?  No
way.   You would find a similar answer on Debian mailing lists though
you would need to wait a week but here I doubt anyone who understands
the problem would see the post before it became unanswered post
#9999....  



> 

> Why should Ubuntu modify it's operation at this point? 

> They would be messing up a perfectly good thing.  That makes no sense.

> BTW, isn't Fedora, SUSE, Mandriva, Slackware, Gentoo, YOPER, Arch, 

> Vector, YellowDog, RedHat and countless others also duplicating
> efforts? 

> They all produce Linux distributions with much of the same software as
> 

> Debian too.

Non of those you mention use a Debian base.  



However many do....  



> 

> But they're there because the founders perceived a need (real or 

> imagined) and so they are. With a few exceptions most distros have
> roots 

> in either RedHat, Slackware or Debian.

> 



Yep and when RH fell out with KDE Mandrake split mainly to add KDE
support.  

Now we have RH, Fedora and Mandrivel...  and the world is not a much
better place for this.  Many of the RPM's used by Mandrake were
originally RH but they didn't keep compatibility.  



> 

> Ubuntu happens to be one of those in the Debian camp.  So, what's the 

> big deal?   If anything, Debian benefits from Ubuntu's contributions to
> 

> the community and vice-versa.

> Why people wish to make this into a big deal, that really isn't is 

> beyond me.

> 

I dunno, for me Debian has always been there (well since 1991) ! 
Perhaps you started some other time.  I haven't always used it but I
have benfited from it.  Looking back (I spent years on RH, then
Mandrake) I owe Debian more than just Debian because its like a thing
that supports the whole linux community.  So does Ubuntu but not in the
same way.  Debian and its social contract provide a steady base.  There
is no polarisation like Ubuntu towards Gnome (an enormous mistake in
the beginning - not Gnome the choice of one over the other)  

*I hardly ever use pure Debian but I am mighty glad its there!*  

This is the bottom line!  

> 

> Why worry? I don't care myself.  I sometimes wonder if Debian
> developers 

> aren't just jealous that Ubuntu can produce something in 6 months, when
> 

> it takes them three years to accomplish the same.   Maybe they feel 

> slighted that the stable distribution of Ubuntu has current or 

> reasonably current software, while their stable distro is old and
> tired.

> 

I doubt it most of them are real programmers with other things....  not
just distro hackers.  But why worry... because without Debain doing the
real stuff Ubuntu wouldn't exist.....  



> 

> > Far better if Ubuntu could use the software developed in the various
> 

> > Debian repositories than going off on its own.[/color]

> 

> Take a look at the changelogs on any Ubuntu package. You'll find most
> of 

> the notes in there are from people with email addresses ending in 

> "@debian.org".   It seems to me Ubuntu uses most of Debian's software.
> 

> They just improve upon it.

> 

In some cases they might improve it.... in many/most its just modifying
it to work with Ubuntu!  That is why it is a waste of effort.  improving
is one thing but this would then feed back into debain but Ubuntu are
not part of Debian so they cannot just backjport because said
improvement is built on some edited libs and these libs are not
necassariliy better just modified for compatibility with other Ubuntu
stuff.  the OP's point is that the mods would be better all round if
applied to Debian libs not modded Ubuntu libs...  



> You're hardly the first to give this warning, but again, I see it no 

> more as a threat to Debian than OpenSUSE is a "threat" to Fedora or KDE
> 

> is a "threat" to  GNOME.

> 

> If Debian can't cope with Ubuntu, it's nobody's fault but their own.

> 

> 



Ahhhh... got it... its about competition!  Right ... only the bnest
survives and all that "Capitalist" crap (with a capital C) that is
applied to commerce....  

If that is what you want then go with XP... or longhorn...  

Lets open up the market and perhaps Mark Suttleworth could pay Debian
developers to sabatage the Debian code ... and all sorts of good
commercial tactics... perhaps we can make a case for paying say Oracle
to develoip specifically against a libc in RedHat that would prevent it
running on RH?  



forgive me for thinking linux was not soley about the most competitive
business practive!


-- 
Gowator