Solution for OEMs/Gnome

Fri Apr 14 12:53:32 UTC 2006

Am Fri, 14. April 2006 12:09 schrieb Murray Cumming:
> On Thu, 2006-04-13 at 17:44 +0200, email.listen at googlemail.com wrote:
> [snip]
>
> > From a companies point of view sabayone is unusable and by this totaly
> > useless.
>
> But you are still not saying what you need it to do. This is
> frustrating. Telling us X times that something is crap and that
> something else is better is not helpful unless you tell us what you need
> it to do.
If you carefully read my last mail again you will find a sentence: "Have a 
closer look to Novell Zenworks and you can see what is state of the art 
since years and years."
So why don't you just have a look and you will see why most companies see 
tools like Sabayon and others only as a feasibility study not as a product 
which is known and present for other OS'es.

>
> > This because tools like sabyone are used to _save_ time for
> > administration. A tool like sabayon witch has not a bit a documentation
> > at all and which wants the administrator to analyse the source code as
> > documentation will need much more time than others. By this, time is
> > money as you know, sabayone will never be accepted in an professional
> > environment in its current state. And also because of this Gnome will not
> > make it on a companies desktop.
>
> Of course Sabayon is very new, and documentation does need to be done,
> but I don't think it requires a great deal of documentation to use.
> There is very little UI, and the whole point is that you can use a
> normal session.
>
> [snip more repeated unpleasantness]
>
> > But you may show me a Gnome tool which is able to configure a user
> > desktop from top to bottom,
>
> I assume that "top to bottom" is just a summary of the other things you
> mention here:
>
> So, finally some actual needs:
> >  restrict account login behaviour on acl base, defines
> > different sorts of authentications for diferent users/groups (in a LDAP
> > _and_ NDS _and_ AD) e.g. classical login, login by usinfg Crypto Cards,
> > login using one way password generators. Not to forget access
> > administration for all applications on acl base, systemwide for all users
> > and machines.
>
> I'll take this to the GNOME developers. Could you help me by telling me
> exactly where to find this functionality in kiosktool, for comparison?

Again, have a look to what I wrote: "It is far away from what KDE Kiosktool 
offers and both are far away what other operating systems offer."

I'm comparing what GNU/Linux tools offer to other tools on other OS'es since 
years. I don't care the KDE versus Gnome frills and furbelows both prjects 
are known for if it comes to the other project.

Both KDE and Gnome are known for their conceitedness, eg. Frerich Rabe who 
writes as a comment on Golem that KDE is offering what Gnome is thinking 
about (as a comment to sabayon), or some Gnome people who did this stupid 
comparison of both projects user friendliness using the pictures of remote 
controlls.

Exactly the later, a comparison of the complexity of desktop configuration 
using remote controlls, is a good example of both KDE and Gnome wearing 
blinders. 

Both approaches stand for two sides of a users skill. 
In the beginning a clear and manageable configuration environment as offered 
by Gnome is ok. But it should automagically grow in functionality and 
complexity the more a user gets skilled. 
What would be a new way is not having a KDE complexyty _or_ a Gnome clarity 
but having a system which gets more complex the more a user is able to cope / 
handle this.

You, KDE and Gnome, should better have a look what other OS'es have and you 
would be much more decent in your promises.

See this as an expaination of what I see as drawback in general for GNU/Linux 
developers and their projects.

>
> > Don't tell me that there is no need for this. I've been workin with such
> > tools since years now.
>
> Nobody is telling you that it is not necessary. Didn't I just ask you
> what you need? You need to be nicer.

:-))
We are known to be at least as bare of diplomacy and bare of friendly habbits 
as the scottish and irish are, irish _and_ scottish...

Murray don't misunderstand my postings. 
My intention is neither to flame you and Gnome nor KDE.
I'm saying this bare of diplomathy because I know of your deep Gnome 
involvement. And also because I'm very disapointed how few Linux developer 
know what is state of the art in other operation systems.

I can see very promising attempts. e.g. eiciel (Roger Ferrer Ibáñez has done a 
good job here) because of its modular implementation in Nautilus as as a 
standalone application. There are a lot more administrative tasks which could 
be included in existing tools and environements. 
You would have an idea of what I'm talking if you would have a wider horizon 
of what is offered in other OS'es. The administration of directory services 
is a good example for this. If you have a look how ease the allday 
administration jobs of NDS and AD are done in Netware and Windows iot is a 
shame how this has to be done for LDAP in GNU/Linux systems. In the moment 
tools offered by Novell for their directory services are much better doing 
LDAP administration than all GNU/Linux tools do.
IMO a tool like consoleOne by Novell was damned good for directory service 
_and_ ACL administration, and this more than five years ago. And in complex 
structures this has to be done in one place, not by two standalone tools as 
it would be done in GNU/Linux. So eiciel is a first step in this direction, 
what is missing is a module for directory services administration.

regards,
thomas