Programming language for children

[CLIFFORD ILKAY]

On 14/06/09 06:37 PM, Amedee Van Gasse (Ubuntu) wrote:
> On Sun, June 14, 2009 21:34, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote:
> 
>>> One thing I don't agree with here is the avoidance of an IDE. Modern
>>> IDEs
>>> are superb tools that do a huge amount of donkey work for you and
>>> organise your work. And they're fun!
>> They are nothing but a distraction for beginners and serve only to
>> confuse. They have to walk before they can run so let them learn the
>> fundamentals of programming first, learn the language constructs for their
>> particular language, and after they have some comfort level with that, you
>> can introduce an IDE. Of course we may be talking about two completely
>> different things when we say "IDE" because IDLE claims to be an IDE but so
>> does Eclipse. Putting Eclipse in front of a beginner is a lost cause. It's
>> overwhelmingly complex and can be very discouraging to someone who is just
>> starting.
> 
> FUD.
> A *good* IDE doesn't prevent you from doing actual work.

I didn't say that Eclipse doesn't allow developers do to actual work. I
just said it's not a suitable tool for beginners, particularly children.
For instance, I have no idea how they teach drafting these days. I would
be inclined to teach a beginner with nothing more than a T-square, a
drafting ruler, a couple of triangles, a 2H pencil, and a white eraser.
I would not have them sit in front of AutoCAD, or whatever CAD software
strikes your fancy. I'm not suggesting that they have to keep doing it
"the old fashioned way" forever but I think there is real value in
learning the basics first and then layering complexity on top of that.
Another example would be how children learn arithmetic. They don't need
computers. They don't need calculators. They can learn the basics with
what most of them carry around on their hands, namely, their fingers.

Having actually taught introductory programming to children, I can speak
with some authority on this subject. Trust me, children learning
programming are not going to find vim helpful in understanding the
fundamentals of programming. They don't need anything more sophisticated
than Notepad in Windows or KWrite in Linux to learn Python. In fact,
they don't even have to use a text editor at all. They can just use the
Python shell, preferably ipython, because they can get instant feedback
to the code they write. Typing: print 1 + 1 will instantly result in "2"
being output to the console. That is very different than typing the same
thing into a text editor and then figuring out how you're supposed to
execute the thing. That will come soon enough but in my experience,
stripping away as many of those intermediaries between the child and the
machine as possible seems to demystify the machine.

> For example, vi(m) is an excellent IDE, and so is gedit.
> 
> I suppose that you only have experience with bad, bloated IDEs.

You suppose incorrectly. :) I don't consider vim or gedit an IDE,
certainly not along the lines of Eclipse, Visual Studio, or KDevelop.
-- 
Regards,

Clifford Ilkay
Dinamis
1419-3266 Yonge St.
Toronto, ON
Canada  M4N 3P6

<http://dinamis.com>
+1 416-410-3326
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