[ubuntu-za] Stop the Anti-Unity / Gnome 3 FUD!

[Peter Nel]

Sorry for dragging this out everyone - bit slow over the holidays, and
my OCD brain just have to grind at things until there's a smooth
finish.

Lee,

> Lee Sharp wrote:
>> Despite the immense weight of his (and the other old school guru's)
>> contribution to the FLOSS world, should he really be considered the
>> most eminent expert on graphical user interface design?
>
> No, but...  Different people use tools in different ways.  Should my
> mother drive the type of car that Sebastian Vettel would choose?  Or
> should Sebastian Vettel be forced to drive the type of car that is
> optomized for my mother?

Yet, you still quoted Linus, saying things that were inaccurate...
that on top of his non-expertise on HCI & GUI design.

If your mother and all her "quilt-making" friends started using Ubuntu
because of Unity, I'm sure I won't be the only one shouting  "the year
has come!" from the rooftops.
That would mean that Unity was exactly the success it was
designed/hoped to be. (Q: Did it look like linux was starting to-, or
was ever going to dominate the desktop with gnome 2, xfce, kde, etc?)
The cool thing to me is that Unity is not just a dumbed down interface
like many claim -- like most FLOSS software, more thought than what's
necessary for market-grabbing, profit maximizing bottom lines went
into the design of the thing... at least I hope; but speaking for
myself, I now spend only a fraction of the time configuring Unity to
do exactly what I custom-configured gnome to do previously.

Ubuntu has always tried to be "linux for human beings", i.e. the linux
distro that attracts mainstream users - it is what made it the 3rd
most popular desktop OS in such a short time. It's relatively young
compared to Redhat, debian, suse, mandrake and others -- all of which
also had gnome, kde, etc.

We gearheads are not the mainstream - it's probably a good thing ;-)

> OK.  Have a large tiles desktop with 4-10 windows open.  To open the
> application menue for the bottom right window I must highlight the
> window, and then cross the entire desktop to get to the menue.  When
> working with many windows this takes more time and more movement.

Tiling so many windows on the same workspace that the distance from
the active window and its menus in the common menubar (/taskbar/info
panel) becomes a problem is, to me, quite a peculiar work flow.
Perhaps reconsider? Also notice that for each tiled window you have a
wasted copy of it's local menu-bar, etc. The more windows, the more
duplicate waste.
But still, that is one use-case where the new titlebar/menu design
perhaps fails you; but there are other more regular use-case problems
on the other hand, that it solves. For instance the active window's
"file" menu is always in the same place (no searching for window
borders, that can be problematic on noisy desktops), and the
close/minimize/maximize buttons always default top-left.. imagine
having to close many windows in succession - if they are placed all
over the screen, the close button remains in the same place, so just a
series of clicks.

I've spoken to several people whose distaste for unity stemmed from
their very idiosyncratic workflows... most of them could be
reorganized to use more modern (and imo more sensible) techniques or
workarounds with minimal impact to muscle memory; the rest, while
arguably questionable habits, were really corner cases. Designing and
maintaining a whole Desktop Environment to support those cases is
prohibitively expensive, and non-sustainable, IMO. Besides, having
such unique requirements strongly suggests that those users had the
skill to coerce most any system to do whatever they wanted, whether
Unity or not.

It's nice to demand choice, and by implication, support for all of
Gnome 2, Gnome 3, and Unity - but it is not realistic. Gnome is a
massively complex system while Ubuntu is a free OS.

> When I have many windows open on the taskbar (over 20) alt-tab takes
> much longer than hovering over the icon, especially if you have grouped
> your icone based on work flow, wich often is with different
> applications.  Example, I am doing DNS stuff with three terminal
> windows, an editor, and a few web pages.  But as a side project, and
> occasional break when my mind is turning to soup, I am researching mail
> servers using other totally unrelated web pages.
>

>From 11.10 the Alt+tab app groups similar windows (navigable by
combining cursor keys with alt+tab, or simply hovering over grouped
windows), adding a "workflow grouping" dimension to what used to be a
simple window switcher.
Besides that, icons in the launcher are now also more than just
launchers: they are also 'active window' indicators and selectors. In
past you wasted space by having separate icons for launchers in
addition to the window switcher for active windows; now you use them
to both launch multiple app instances (middle-click), and also switch
between running instances (click, select window) - they are also being
expanded to display additional info such as progressbars for long
running tasks like file-copies and downloads, and other info-icons,
and also with additional app-centric tasks via context menus. All this
extra functionality without taking up more screen space.

To me the question isn't "Why did they change it?", it's "Why wasn't
always like this?".

PS The Alt-tab behavior can be changed by replacing it with one of the
other Compiz switcher apps.

>
>> Being free software projects, I hope they're successful (just as you
>> should hope other FLOSS projects should be, even if you don't prefer
>> to use them) - But, they do not have the funding and support that
>> Gnome 3 (gnome foundation) and Unity (canonical) enjoy. As I've
>> mentioned, Canonical has obviated their commitment, through 12.04 LTS
>> with Unity; which will be supported for 5 years - longer than any
>> previous desktop release. Furthermore, and sadly for some, this is
>> what governments and large corporate desktop deployments are
>> interested in.
>
> I have been CTO and CIO a few times, and you are right to an extent.
> Support is important, but doing the job trumps that.  I have had to
> continue with anciant mainframes and cobol with fancy new web front
> ends, all custom, and no support, because the business was all on that
> mainframe.

Talking about end-users now... much of the average corporate workforce
needs special training irrespective of whether it's a "windows
95"-style interface, or whether it's something else.
Give them an icon, and tell them to click it and get on with their
job. You often even lock down the rest of their system making all
arguments on customizability irrelevant.
Those users are not really interested in anything else anyway; if they
were, it would not have been necessary to train them.

>>> OK.  How about some facts?  Gnome 3 is designed around a single
>>> application viewable at a time.
>>
>> Facts, huh?!
>> Have you tried ALT+Tab??... it's as it's always been! In Unity you can
>> still minimize/maximize/unmaximize windows just like before.
>
> Alt-tab, take an application and switches to another.  It does not allow
> work flow grouping.  That is why I do not use it now either.

See ^^above discussion.

>> Nothing fundamental has changed (the window buttons only moved, and
>> the menus collapsed into the app's titlebar).
>
> This is not a small deal, as illustrated above.
>
>> ... You can even replace the
>> Alt-tab app if you don't like it. You can click on an launcher icon to
>> switch between multiple windows of an app. Middle-click to launch a
>> new instance... it's not just a dumb selector anymore.
>
> And when your workflow is mixed apps?

Not sure what you mean. If you want to switch between windows of
another app, you click the launcher icon of that app...?

>
>> There are also other shortcuts to access multiple windows in different
>> ways, eg. Shift+Alt+up_arrow (tile apps on current workspace) and
>> super+w tile all active apps, and more.
>
> This is an improvement.  I will have to try that.  As I said, I am
> looking for a solution, and if Unity becomes that, fantastik.  But it is
> not there yet.

What I've also done since before Unity is group apps by workspace (desktop):
1) Work: work apps, IDE's, coding, text editing, etc.
2) Mail: work mail, personal mail
3) Entertainment: IM, chat, newreader, music, video
4) Terminal, multiple terminal windows / tab-groups

I use Ctrl+Alt+<cursor> to slide the the desktop, then alt+tab to get
to the correct window. There are other ways, like keyboard + mouse
combo.

Also, Cairo dock is highly customizable, and brings back some of the
old panel-like functionality. Though I'm using it less and less these
days. A bit redundant, and starting to get in the way.

>>> Right now I have 4 windows open and
>>> visible.  They are at all of the edges of the screen.  If I move a
>>> window to the top of the screen in Unity, it goes full screen, and I
>>> have to move it back and jack with it.
>>
>> Yes that's a Compiz feature called 'Grid' (not Unity! It's existed
>> long before, just like multiple desktop-workspaces). If you don't like
>> it, disable it with the Compiz-Config app.
>
> First, it was not enabled by default before.  Second, you need to
> install an application to disable it.  Third, you need to know that you
> need that application...

...and the problem is...?

You seem to know what to do.

>> I've activated compiz edge-flipping myself to drag windows to other
>> desktops in stead of tiling them on the current workspace / desktop.
>
> This is nice.  Especially since you can no longer right click and "Move
> to workspace Right."

An even faster way is to Ctrl+Alt+Shift+<cursor> : grabs the active
window and pulls it the desktop in the direction of the cursor, e.g.
above, below, or to the side.
It looks wicked when you chuck windows to various desktops, then slide
back (ctrl+alt+<cusror>), alt tab to do work on another -- freaks
people out >.<

True story: My "Mac-status" exec PM walked in the other day, pausing
at my desktop, and said "Whoa! is that a Mac?"; I was like: "No, it's
Ubuntu... it's linux ;-)"
He responded with: "I knew Linux was improving on the desktop, but I
didn't know they were this advanced..." - I just smiled. It made my
day.

>>
>> If you've used the app a couple of times it will float to the top; if
>> you can't search it, you should be able to click apps and it should be
>> at the top of the list of often used apps.
>
> How often do you need to benchmark your name servers?  It is never a
> frequently used app.  That is why I forgot the name.

Perhaps if you describe in detail how you do it we can maybe find some
cool alternative ways. Guaranteed possible.

>>> Or in Gnome 2, I go to
>>> Applications ->  Internet and find NameBench.  That was it!  (Yes, this
>>> actually happened.
>>
>> You also see many other things you don't need to see in the menus...
>> you also have to drill down those menus EVERY time, regardless of how
>> often you use the apps.
>
> Agreed, this can be overwhelming.  The search is a fantastic feature, no
> doubt.  As is the adaptive menus.  But burying the hard menus is a
> detriment to some.

Yea. Those menus are not too cool. No more menu's in 11.10 as far as I
can see. Looks more like a combo of lenses and filters... pretty
straight forward AFAICS
Though, I can't remember when I last really needed it.

>>> Whose poll?  omgubuntu is a nice blog, but it has a audience skewed
>>> toward the non-technical. (Of Linux users, which is highly technical,
>>> but hang on)
>>
>> Please provide evidence of this skew.
>
> Look at the "Most Read This Week" section.  Find an article that is
> highly technical.

IMO, This is just an effect of sensationalist FUD blogging... let's
wait and see.

Play on people's fears and you start hearing lot's of noise!

An alternative perspective on this very subject:
http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/11/dare-to-be-different-ubuntus-popularity-is-not-declining/

>> But yes, preferably a poll in the ubuntu desktop user community. A
>> poll testing usage of Unity in some other non-ubuntu community would
>> be pointless since only Ubuntu uses unity.
>
> The problem is that users are mobile.  And the users most effected by
> this are the ones that can most easily move.

um.... what?

>>>   Look at Linus,
>>> Eric Raymond, Richard Stalman...  They are all leaving Ubuntu or Gnome
>>> right now.  And they do not take polls at omgubuntu...
>>
>> Ignoring the fact that you seem really presumptuous about these guys...
>> In debate we refer to this type of argument as: "Appealing to
>> Authority" - it is a logical fallacy.
>
> I think you misunderstood.  While they are people in authority, they are
> also people who work the way I do.  I can also tell you about Bob and
> Thomas, but that would have no relevance to you.  But many people have
> found that Unity gets in the way of them doing work.

This has been addressed above I think. But while we're quoting the big
dogs, let's hear what Mark Shuttleworth, the guy who made a success of
Ubuntu in the first place, and whose opinion on this subject probably
trumps those Space Cowboys' :-)   :
[ http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/11/mark-shuttleworth-talks-new-icon-theme-criticisms-gnome-shell-ubuntu-on-tvs-phones/]
- - -
There are, of course, valid criticisms and we can’t be too
thin-skinned about opinions.

That said, some of the most passionate complaints are from users in
two bugs, with directly opposite desires.

Bug (a) says an action should go left, Bug (b) says it should go
right, and some of the voices in each bug are unreasonably insistent
on their position the design team has to resolve those, and also has
to put us ahead of the curve.

We won’t compete if we constantly wait for ideas to be validated elsewhere.

I’m pretty proud of our record of innovation, even we had U1 before
iCloud, or the Windows equivalents; we introduced overlay scrollbars
first; we designed Unity with a single icon left launcher, and full
screen search, before anybody else. Apple’s launchpad, and Gnome Shell
all came later.

Change will always make people pissy but i think, if we voxed [means
to ask] you all in the channel, you would say you want the platform of
the future, not one from the past so that’s what we’re working on and
we do it with integrity, and care.
- - -


>> Have a pleasant xmas and new year.
>
> And the same to you and yours.
>
>                        Lee
>

Keep well !


Péter Nel