[CoLoCo] Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)

[Kevin Fries]

Neal,

For the record...

I have yet to make much money from the Ubuntu environment.  Most of what
I do is volunteer.  While I am trying to build a business built upon
Ubuntu, every dime is still coming out of my pocket, with the hope that
I will be able to recover it... some day!  (hopefully soon....
please....)

I have had battles with Scott in the past.  And yes, I have been
following the on running conversation.  I let most of it go.  But Scott
went over the line when he told someone this morning that what the
customer did not matter, that since he is a volunteer that he should
decide what features are key.

The bottom line, volunteer or not, Scott Kitterman is doing more harm
than good.  I have 20 years of experience programming, and have not
contributed one line of code to Ubuntu.  The reason was my previous
encounters with Scott.  His territorial attitude and those of others
like him have chased many good programmers away.  And I am good enough
to have been highly targeted by Microsoft to do some of their
development.  My  skills have slipped in the past few years, but at one
time were world class.  I did not need his BS then, so I decided to
contribute in other ways.  But I will not stand by and let him belittle
others.

Yet, idiots like this keep me away.  And other former Ubuntu developers
are more and more speaking up about this.  If you want to get paid, stop
volunteering.  Its that simple.  If you are in it for other reasons,
then stop whinnying about the end users wants and needs.  And for god
sake, stop telling the end user that their concerns are not as important
as your own.

RESPECT!!!  That is what Scott Kitterman is missing.  Until he shot his
mouth off professing his needs were more important than the customers, I
kept to myself.

Kevin Fries


On Thu, 2007-12-06 at 13:13 -0700, Neal McBurnett wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 06, 2007 at 11:55:40AM -0700, Kevin Fries wrote:
> > 
> > On Thu, 2007-12-06 at 12:03 -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> > > I think you misunderstand my point.
> > 
> > No I got it.  And I think that that thinking is wrong and dangerous to
> > Linux in general, and Ubuntu in specific.
> 
> Kevin - howdy!  I know you're doing cool stuff for Ubuntu and the
> market, and you bring some good business perspectives to Ubuntu as a
> product.  And I want Ubuntu to be a great product!  But Ubuntu is more
> than that.  Please recognize that there are many different sorts of
> people involved in Ubuntu, and respect everyone's right to do what
> they feel called to do.  Scott speaks for many of us who are not paid.
> In fact seminal essays on Free Software sociology have demonstrated
> that this is not an uncommon position - the old "scratching an itch"
> motivation.
> 
> Telling people who you're not paying what to do using inflamatory
> language is just not very helpful IMHO :-)
> 
> > > My concern is the idea that "because a user said they want it" is
> > > a meaninful metric in a largely volunteer project.  In Free
> > > software projects, the meaningful metric for what gets done is
> > > what the people doing the work think needs doing (and this applies
> > > to all types of work, not just development, in the project).
> > > Volunteers can't be ordered.  They have to be convinced.
>  
> > If I don't get my steak the way I ordered it.  I buy my steak from
> > elsewhere.  Ubuntu with no users, is not anything but an exercise in
> > ego.  What the customer wants is the only real metric.  You need to
> > understand that as a developer, and I live with that every day as a
> > Consultant, Designer, and Implementer.
> 
> You can indeed pay someone to do work related to Ubuntu, just like in
> the commercial software world.  You can pay Canonical, or another
> Ubuntu support firm, or folks that do upstream development, or vendors
> that sell software or hardware that runs on Ubuntu.  And then you get
> to specify what you'll pay for.
> 
> But Ubuntu is MORE than a commercial project.  It is also a rich,
> diverse community of contributors.  Some developers, some writers some
> bug triagers, etc etc.  They contribute in ways that are very
> different from the way the business world works.  And we benefit in
> wonderful and unexpected ways from the diversity of their motivations.
> 
> I agree that excellent attention to customers is hugely important to
> bug #1.  But [gasp] not everyone is doing this because of bug #1.
> Some are just having fun, and still contributing in excellent ways.
> Free software projects flourish when everyone is respected for how
> they want to contribute.
> 
> > Which of those priorities you wish to work on, however, is completely
> > your own decision.  But the customer MUST set the priorities of what
> > needs done in the bigger picture. And, the customer MUST set the list of
> > features that need to be implemented.
> > 
> > Rule #1 of Business: Its not about you.
> > 
> > If you do not make your customers wishes and desires #1 on your priority
> > list, your competition will.
> 
> For the folks that are paid, right on.  For the volunteers - maybe
> that isn't what floats their boat.  Let them choose how to contribute.
> Remember, they're letting YOU choose how to leverage the result of
> their work, after all.  That is part of the magic of free software.
> 
> > Lets not forget, Ubuntu is a business product, distributed by a real
> > business.  Therefore, its not about you... or me.  Its about the
> > customer.  Making the customer feel like they have to talk you into
> > something, is just not good business.  This is why I spend so many hours
> > providing help to ANYONE who asks.  Even people I would rather not.  Its
> > not about me, its about Ubuntu, and what is best for the project.
> > 
> > Even more so in an all volunteer endeavor, egos must be checked at the
> > door.  Developer's egos, designer's egos, and consultant's egos.  We as
> > the people trying to make this a success, need to listen to the customer
> > so that there will be more of them.  Its the one true advantage we have
> > over Microsoft which is notorious for blowing off their customer to do
> > what is in their best interest (Can we say Windows Genuine Advantage, or
> > Digital Rights Management... I knew we could).
> 
> Right on about checking egos at the door.  And I think ego is all
> about telling someone else how to do something.  So I delight in your
> energy and way of contributing to the Ubuntu ecosystem.  But recognize
> that there is more than one way, and that is to our benefit, and
> please don't project your views onto others.
> 
> > You allow the customers wishes to be the only real metric because you
> > place Ubuntu and Linux's needs before your own.  Otherwise, are you
> > really helping?
> 
> This conversation started off (in October!) with a non-developer
> trying to find out if a post to the list about a "favorite bug" was
> appropriate.  Unfortunately we've now regressed into a non-so-pretty
> internal argument.  What an inappropriate waste!!
> 
> In summary I think we will make a lot more progress if we recognize
> there are many ways of helping.  Treating each other with respect is
> one of the most important.  And figuring out creative new ways to
> contribute is another.  My own suggestions for contributors, both
> developers and non-developers, is in a talk I did last month for the
> Boulder Linux Users Group:
> 
>  http://mcburnett.org/neal/talks/contribute_to_ubuntu.html
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Neal McBurnett                 http://mcburnett.org/neal/
> 
> 
-- 
Kevin Fries
Senior Linux Engineer
Computer and Communications Technology, Inc
A Division of Japan Communications Inc.