[CoLoCo] Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)

[TJ Heaney]

Can we really do anything about him?

To me, that sounds like it is dangerously close to violating some sort of
code of conduct....

On Dec 6, 2007 2:20 PM, Kevin Fries <kfries at cctus.com> wrote:

> Neal,
>
> For the record...
>
> I have yet to make much money from the Ubuntu environment.  Most of what
> I do is volunteer.  While I am trying to build a business built upon
> Ubuntu, every dime is still coming out of my pocket, with the hope that
> I will be able to recover it... some day!  (hopefully soon....
> please....)
>
> I have had battles with Scott in the past.  And yes, I have been
> following the on running conversation.  I let most of it go.  But Scott
> went over the line when he told someone this morning that what the
> customer did not matter, that since he is a volunteer that he should
> decide what features are key.
>
> The bottom line, volunteer or not, Scott Kitterman is doing more harm
> than good.  I have 20 years of experience programming, and have not
> contributed one line of code to Ubuntu.  The reason was my previous
> encounters with Scott.  His territorial attitude and those of others
> like him have chased many good programmers away.  And I am good enough
> to have been highly targeted by Microsoft to do some of their
> development.  My  skills have slipped in the past few years, but at one
> time were world class.  I did not need his BS then, so I decided to
> contribute in other ways.  But I will not stand by and let him belittle
> others.
>
> Yet, idiots like this keep me away.  And other former Ubuntu developers
> are more and more speaking up about this.  If you want to get paid, stop
> volunteering.  Its that simple.  If you are in it for other reasons,
> then stop whinnying about the end users wants and needs.  And for god
> sake, stop telling the end user that their concerns are not as important
> as your own.
>
> RESPECT!!!  That is what Scott Kitterman is missing.  Until he shot his
> mouth off professing his needs were more important than the customers, I
> kept to myself.
>
> Kevin Fries
>
>
> On Thu, 2007-12-06 at 13:13 -0700, Neal McBurnett wrote:
> > On Thu, Dec 06, 2007 at 11:55:40AM -0700, Kevin Fries wrote:
> > >
> > > On Thu, 2007-12-06 at 12:03 -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> > > > I think you misunderstand my point.
> > >
> > > No I got it.  And I think that that thinking is wrong and dangerous to
> > > Linux in general, and Ubuntu in specific.
> >
> > Kevin - howdy!  I know you're doing cool stuff for Ubuntu and the
> > market, and you bring some good business perspectives to Ubuntu as a
> > product.  And I want Ubuntu to be a great product!  But Ubuntu is more
> > than that.  Please recognize that there are many different sorts of
> > people involved in Ubuntu, and respect everyone's right to do what
> > they feel called to do.  Scott speaks for many of us who are not paid.
> > In fact seminal essays on Free Software sociology have demonstrated
> > that this is not an uncommon position - the old "scratching an itch"
> > motivation.
> >
> > Telling people who you're not paying what to do using inflamatory
> > language is just not very helpful IMHO :-)
> >
> > > > My concern is the idea that "because a user said they want it" is
> > > > a meaninful metric in a largely volunteer project.  In Free
> > > > software projects, the meaningful metric for what gets done is
> > > > what the people doing the work think needs doing (and this applies
> > > > to all types of work, not just development, in the project).
> > > > Volunteers can't be ordered.  They have to be convinced.
> >
> > > If I don't get my steak the way I ordered it.  I buy my steak from
> > > elsewhere.  Ubuntu with no users, is not anything but an exercise in
> > > ego.  What the customer wants is the only real metric.  You need to
> > > understand that as a developer, and I live with that every day as a
> > > Consultant, Designer, and Implementer.
> >
> > You can indeed pay someone to do work related to Ubuntu, just like in
> > the commercial software world.  You can pay Canonical, or another
> > Ubuntu support firm, or folks that do upstream development, or vendors
> > that sell software or hardware that runs on Ubuntu.  And then you get
> > to specify what you'll pay for.
> >
> > But Ubuntu is MORE than a commercial project.  It is also a rich,
> > diverse community of contributors.  Some developers, some writers some
> > bug triagers, etc etc.  They contribute in ways that are very
> > different from the way the business world works.  And we benefit in
> > wonderful and unexpected ways from the diversity of their motivations.
> >
> > I agree that excellent attention to customers is hugely important to
> > bug #1.  But [gasp] not everyone is doing this because of bug #1.
> > Some are just having fun, and still contributing in excellent ways.
> > Free software projects flourish when everyone is respected for how
> > they want to contribute.
> >
> > > Which of those priorities you wish to work on, however, is completely
> > > your own decision.  But the customer MUST set the priorities of what
> > > needs done in the bigger picture. And, the customer MUST set the list
> of
> > > features that need to be implemented.
> > >
> > > Rule #1 of Business: Its not about you.
> > >
> > > If you do not make your customers wishes and desires #1 on your
> priority
> > > list, your competition will.
> >
> > For the folks that are paid, right on.  For the volunteers - maybe
> > that isn't what floats their boat.  Let them choose how to contribute.
> > Remember, they're letting YOU choose how to leverage the result of
> > their work, after all.  That is part of the magic of free software.
> >
> > > Lets not forget, Ubuntu is a business product, distributed by a real
> > > business.  Therefore, its not about you... or me.  Its about the
> > > customer.  Making the customer feel like they have to talk you into
> > > something, is just not good business.  This is why I spend so many
> hours
> > > providing help to ANYONE who asks.  Even people I would rather not.
>  Its
> > > not about me, its about Ubuntu, and what is best for the project.
> > >
> > > Even more so in an all volunteer endeavor, egos must be checked at the
> > > door.  Developer's egos, designer's egos, and consultant's egos.  We
> as
> > > the people trying to make this a success, need to listen to the
> customer
> > > so that there will be more of them.  Its the one true advantage we
> have
> > > over Microsoft which is notorious for blowing off their customer to do
> > > what is in their best interest (Can we say Windows Genuine Advantage,
> or
> > > Digital Rights Management... I knew we could).
> >
> > Right on about checking egos at the door.  And I think ego is all
> > about telling someone else how to do something.  So I delight in your
> > energy and way of contributing to the Ubuntu ecosystem.  But recognize
> > that there is more than one way, and that is to our benefit, and
> > please don't project your views onto others.
> >
> > > You allow the customers wishes to be the only real metric because you
> > > place Ubuntu and Linux's needs before your own.  Otherwise, are you
> > > really helping?
> >
> > This conversation started off (in October!) with a non-developer
> > trying to find out if a post to the list about a "favorite bug" was
> > appropriate.  Unfortunately we've now regressed into a non-so-pretty
> > internal argument.  What an inappropriate waste!!
> >
> > In summary I think we will make a lot more progress if we recognize
> > there are many ways of helping.  Treating each other with respect is
> > one of the most important.  And figuring out creative new ways to
> > contribute is another.  My own suggestions for contributors, both
> > developers and non-developers, is in a talk I did last month for the
> > Boulder Linux Users Group:
> >
> >  http://mcburnett.org/neal/talks/contribute_to_ubuntu.html
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Neal McBurnett                 http://mcburnett.org/neal/
> >
> >
> --
> Kevin Fries
> Senior Linux Engineer
> Computer and Communications Technology, Inc
> A Division of Japan Communications Inc.
>
> --
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