[ubuntu-za] Stop the Anti-Unity / Gnome 3 FUD!

[Peter Nel]

Lee,

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 11:38:00, Lee Sharp wrote:
> On 12/22/2011 03:21 AM, Peter Nel wrote:
>
>> I know we've been reading very vocal opinions against Unity, and it
>> pains me that so many negativity have been spread around it.
>
> And I am sick and tired of my reasoned opinions being called FUD.

Would you describe your original reply here reasoned?! Perhaps
elsewhere on some other forum, but I saw nothing reasonable about your
first post.

I'm quite tired, it's late, it's xmas eve and i'm not too sober, and
this debate is just wearing me down. I have addressed many of the
problems you seem to have with Unity in other forums. I also don't
really think this is the place for discussing these issues.
I invite you to follow my discussion on the linkedin thread:
http://www.linkedin.com/groupAnswers?viewQuestionAndAnswers=&discussionID=79416702&gid=27258&commentID=62414312&trk=view_disc&ut=1YZkQXtJZUVR01

However, if it's too long, I will give you the courtesy of responding
to some of them below.

>
>> Unity in 11.10 was actually voted most popular in one of the latest polls:
>> [Poll Result: 15,900 votes Cast; Unity Named Most Popular Desktop]
>> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/11/poll-result-15800-votes-cast-unity-named-most-popular-desktop/
>> Results look substantially better than earlier polls, so it seems
>> people are warming up to the idea.
>
> Go look at the Phoronix poll.  The most common thread is that Gnome
> Shell is bad, and bring back Gnome 2.  Also, consider the question,
> "Which Desktop Environment Do You Use in Ubuntu 11.10?"  Not a lot of
> option there...  Unity, Gnome Shell, or a castrated and non-functioning
> clone of Gnome 2.  And Unity is MUCH better than Gnome 3.  It is
> actually a good tool for some, but not for me on a computer, and for
> many others on full sized computers.  Note that I am looking at a
> tablet, and I would install unity on that.
>
>> Certain people are so against change that they actively spread Fear
>> Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) to force some agenda, whether by
>> sensational blog articles to pull ad-clicking revenue-generating
>> viewers, or in forum comments.
>> Rest assured, they are the minority, who tend to contribute very
>> little to the community.
>
> Like that lazy Linus guy?
> http://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=linus+Gnbome+3&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=linus%20Gnome%203

I have the utmost reverence and respect, Mr. Linus Torvalds, as well
as Eric Raymond and Richard Stallman... They are to a degree my idols;
although I have admittedly not read any opinions of the latter two on
the matter.
As I've pointed out in other discussions on Linus' comments,
considering precisely his field of expertise, and the linux
environment he comes from (by definition, having written the first
kernel, an environment before even the most basic X windows, hell,
before even the most basic terminal), he codes in vi, and does git
from the command line (having written git as well)
Despite the immense weight of his (and the other old school guru's)
contribution to the FLOSS world, should he really be considered the
most eminent expert on graphical user interface design? HCI is a deep
field of expertise, with principles and usage analysis techniques that
go way beyond the scope of simple ranting blog articles or any
discussion you and I can usefully have here.
Besides, if you compare the current (or even earlier) Unity to the
claims Linus made (e.g. Wobbly windows... an optional Compiz effect
(not Unity/gnome3) which were not active by default; or the inability
to have desktop icons in Unity... FALSE; etc.) - they are simply
invalid. If he complained about wobbly windows, he must have had
issues with Ubuntu (perhaps GUI DE's in general) before Unity came
out, which in previous ubuntu's were only activated by default when
you switched on "advanced visualizations"... completely user-driven
anyway..


> Now let me skip to your other e-mail...
>
>
> On 12/22/2011 08:28 AM, Peter Nel wrote:
>  > It's opinionated comments like that that creates fear (uncertainty,
>  > and doubt) in the minds of less experienced users whom we are supposed
>  > to guide into adoption.
>
> And reactionary responses like yours which perpetuate the problem.  It
> is not FUD.  It is a reasoned opinion based on facts and the way I and
> many others use a computer.

I'm still to see facts that are not simply opinions and problems users
are having navigating the UI or finding things (imo, letting go of old
habits -- nobody likes doing that) - things that to me and others, are
actually faster now.

>  > Recommending degrading to 10.04 is a short term "solution" at best,
>  > and is irresponsible. It's already 3x releases old. The next one,
>  > 12.04 is the next LTS, and Canonical will be discontinuing support for
>  > 10.04 in the near future... Are YOU going to support them then? Or
>  > what, are you going to tell them to migrate to Linux Mint, that with
>  > Mint 12 (Lisa) has also seen the sense of going over to Gnome3 (it's
>  > supposed "edge" over Ubuntu having been Gnome 2!), or perhaps some
>  > other less-supported desktop?
>
> All of it is a short term solution.  The end is different, but support
> will end for 12.04 as well.  Hopefully by the time 10.04 is no longer
> updated there will be other options.  There are already two BIG ones.
> There is the fork of Gnome 2, Mate, which is intended to be Gnome 2 with
> gtk3.  And there is the fork of Gnome 3 which is intended to have the
> Gnome 2 DE ported.  This is being done by the Linux Mint guys.

I say the following with all the appropriate respect to the developers
of the relevant projects:

MATE, the gnome 2 fork may not last. I think we underestimate the
amount of work it takes to maintain gnome...
It is done by a few, if not a single developer... do you want to stake
everything on this guy pulling through.

The mighty Mint has also gone over to Gnome 3... MSGE are slapped on
extensions -- it's that or MATE. Talking about stability, man they're
having just as many problems over there.

I'm not mentioning the other dubious practices performed by the mint
developers, like rerouting banshee revenue to them exclusively.

Being free software projects, I hope they're successful (just as you
should hope other FLOSS projects should be, even if you don't prefer
to use them) - But, they do not have the funding and support that
Gnome 3 (gnome foundation) and Unity (canonical) enjoy. As I've
mentioned, Canonical has obviated their commitment, through 12.04 LTS
with Unity; which will be supported for 5 years - longer than any
previous desktop release. Furthermore, and sadly for some, this is
what governments and large corporate desktop deployments are
interested in.

>  > You have the right to your opinion but don't sell it as fact, or
>  > impose it on impressionable people who may take your word as
>  > authoritative on the subject.
>
> OK.  How about some facts?  Gnome 3 is designed around a single
> application viewable at a time.

Facts, huh?!
Have you tried ALT+Tab??... it's as it's always been! In Unity you can
still minimize/maximize/unmaximize windows just like before.
Nothing fundamental has changed (the window buttons only moved, and
the menus collapsed into the app's titlebar). You can even replace the
Alt-tab app if you don't like it. You can click on an launcher icon to
switch between multiple windows of an app. Middle-click to launch a
new instance... it's not just a dumb selector anymore.
There are also other shortcuts to access multiple windows in different
ways, eg. Shift+Alt+up_arrow (tile apps on current workspace) and
suprt+w tile all active apps, and more.

> Right now I have 4 windows open and
> visible.  They are at all of the edges of the screen.  If I move a
> window to the top of the screen in Unity, it goes full screen, and I
> have to move it back and jack with it.

Yes that's a Compiz feature called 'Grid' (not Unity! It's existed
long before, just like multiple desktop-workspaces). If you don't like
it, disable it with the Compiz-Config app.
I've activated compiz edge-flipping myself to drag windows to other
desktops in stead of tiling them on the current workspace / desktop.

> If I want to find a window, I
> have to go via the App menu first.  This is not how I and many others do
> work.  It slows me down a LOT.  Also the search instead of a menu...  I
> have this DNS server benchmarking application installed.  What was it
> called again?  Search DNS, but nope...

If you've used the app a couple of times it will float to the top; if
you can't search it, you should be able to click apps and it should be
at the top of the list of often used apps.

> Or in Gnome 2, I go to
> Applications -> Internet and find NameBench.  That was it!  (Yes, this
> actually happened.

You also see many other things you don't need to see in the menus...
you also have to drill down those menus EVERY time, regardless of how
often you use the apps.

> I went back to my other computer to find the app on
> the Unity box I was trying to use.)

The 'menu' way of finding apps in unity is a last resort. The
preferred way (in order) is to:
1) put most used apps on launcher;
2) apps not on launcher search: tap super -> start typing -> enter/or
cursor to app, enter.
3) browse the apps section, or lenses (most used apps listed first)
4) use the dash menus (last resort, and should only be needed one or 2
times, after which they'll float to the top)

You can put icons on the desktop too if you really want.

I find the search is extremely fast to launch apps, even if there's a
shortcut on the launcher, otherwise the super-[1..0] hotkey frees me
from having to leave the keyboard. Being such experienced users, we
know what we want to run don't we? Why dig through the same menu's
every time?

>  > There are many (apparently the majority according to recent polls) old
>  > and new users that like Unity and/or Gnome3.
>
> Whose poll?  omgubuntu is a nice blog, but it has a audience skewed
> toward the non-technical. (Of Linux users, which is highly technical,
> but hang on)

Please provide evidence of this skew.

But yes, preferably a poll in the ubuntu desktop user community. A
poll testing usage of Unity in some other non-ubuntu community would
be pointless since only Ubuntu uses unity.

> If you look at network admins, developers, and hackers (old
> version, not crackers) you see a lot more resentment.  You also see them
> leaving in droves because they have the skill to do so.

Would you agree that resentful people would more likely recognize
similar resentment in others than they would support? I again, see
more support - perhaps just a difference of our perspectives?

>  Look at Linus,
> Eric Raymond, Richard Stalman...  They are all leaving Ubuntu or Gnome
> right now.  And they do not take polls at omgubuntu...

Ignoring the fact that you seem really presumptuous about these guys...
In debate we refer to this type of argument as: "Appealing to
Authority" - it is a logical fallacy.

>  > Certain people find it hard to adapt I find, more due to old habits
>  > than the new paradigm being inferior in design or concept.
>
> I can adapt.  I can drive a nail with a rock.  But there is this well
> working hammer right here, and I would rather use that.

Good for you! Exercise your linux privilege of: choice.
But please stop dissing those of us who choose to like it... we are
not stupid, and we do not need you herding us like sheep.
You're aware we're not talking about hammers and nails here?! (cliché... yawn)

>
> As to the other comment about applications, I am also running the nvidia
> ppa and the firefox ppa, the WINE ppa, and some others, so I am not
> totally in the dark ages here.
>
>                        Lee
>

I have no doubt you know what you're doing, but consider the
possibility that you yourself may have been more a victim of other
people's FUD than you may like to admit.


Have a pleasant xmas and new year.

-- 
Péter Nel