[ubuntu-za] Stop the Anti-Unity / Gnome 3 FUD!

[Lee Sharp]

Before I start, I want to agree that it is Christmas, and should be 
Merry!  Merry Christmas!  Also, it is easy to get very adgitated in 
these kind of discussions.  Please keep in mind that anger is not what I 
am going for here, but reasoned discussion.

Last, I am trimming a lot to keep in manageable.

On 12/24/2011 04:56 PM, Peter Nel wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 11:38:00, Lee Sharp wrote:
>> On 12/22/2011 03:21 AM, Peter Nel wrote:

>>> I know we've been reading very vocal opinions against Unity, and it
>>> pains me that so many negativity have been spread around it.

>> And I am sick and tired of my reasoned opinions being called FUD.

> Would you describe your original reply here reasoned?! Perhaps
> elsewhere on some other forum, but I saw nothing reasonable about your
> first post.

Actually, no.  It was a tong in cheek joke.  But, as with all good 
humor, there was some truth in it.


> I'm quite tired, it's late, it's xmas eve and i'm not too sober, and
> this debate is just wearing me down.

I am truly sorry for that.  It was not intended.  (The wearing down 
part...  The not too sober part is highly intended!)

> I have the utmost reverence and respect, Mr. Linus Torvalds, as well
> as Eric Raymond and Richard Stallman... They are to a degree my idols;
> although I have admittedly not read any opinions of the latter two on
> the matter.
> As I've pointed out in other discussions on Linus' comments,
> considering precisely his field of expertise, and the linux
> environment he comes from (by definition, having written the first
> kernel, an environment before even the most basic X windows, hell,
> before even the most basic terminal), he codes in vi, and does git
> from the command line (having written git as well)
> Despite the immense weight of his (and the other old school guru's)
> contribution to the FLOSS world, should he really be considered the
> most eminent expert on graphical user interface design?

No, but...  Different people use tools in different ways.  Should my 
mother drive the type of car that Sebastian Vettel would choose?  Or 
should Sebastian Vettel be forced to drive the type of car that is 
optomized for my mother?

> I'm still to see facts that are not simply opinions and problems users
> are having navigating the UI or finding things (imo, letting go of old
> habits -- nobody likes doing that) - things that to me and others, are
> actually faster now.

OK.  Have a large tiles desktop with 4-10 windows open.  To open the 
application menue for the bottom right window I must highlight the 
window, and then cross the entire desktop to get to the menue.  When 
working with many windows this takes more time and more movement.

When I have many windows open on the taskbar (over 20) alt-tab takes 
much longer than hovering over the icon, especially if you have grouped 
your icone based on work flow, wich often is with different 
applications.  Example, I am doing DNS stuff with three terminal 
windows, an editor, and a few web pages.  But as a side project, and 
occasional break when my mind is turning to soup, I am researching mail 
servers using other totally unrelated web pages.

> I say the following with all the appropriate respect to the developers
> of the relevant projects:
>
> MATE, the gnome 2 fork may not last. I think we underestimate the
> amount of work it takes to maintain gnome...
> It is done by a few, if not a single developer... do you want to stake
> everything on this guy pulling through.
>
> The mighty Mint has also gone over to Gnome 3... MSGE are slapped on
> extensions -- it's that or MATE. Talking about stability, man they're
> having just as many problems over there.
>
> I'm not mentioning the other dubious practices performed by the mint
> developers, like rerouting banshee revenue to them exclusively.

I totally agree.  Right now, for me and people with my type of work 
flow, there are few options, and all of them bad in some way.  The fact 
that a 2 year old distribution is the best option is telling.  The Mate 
and Cinimin forks are interesting, and perhaps promising, but in no way 
at all usable.  Likewise XFE and KDE also have some usability isues for 
the way I use a system.

> Being free software projects, I hope they're successful (just as you
> should hope other FLOSS projects should be, even if you don't prefer
> to use them) - But, they do not have the funding and support that
> Gnome 3 (gnome foundation) and Unity (canonical) enjoy. As I've
> mentioned, Canonical has obviated their commitment, through 12.04 LTS
> with Unity; which will be supported for 5 years - longer than any
> previous desktop release. Furthermore, and sadly for some, this is
> what governments and large corporate desktop deployments are
> interested in.

I have been CTO and CIO a few times, and you are right to an extent. 
Support is important, but doing the job trumps that.  I have had to 
continue with anciant mainframes and cobol with fancy new web front 
ends, all custom, and no support, because the business was all on that 
mainframe.

>> OK.  How about some facts?  Gnome 3 is designed around a single
>> application viewable at a time.
>
> Facts, huh?!
> Have you tried ALT+Tab??... it's as it's always been! In Unity you can
> still minimize/maximize/unmaximize windows just like before.

Alt-tab, take an application and switches to another.  It does not allow 
work flow grouping.  That is why I do not use it now either.

> Nothing fundamental has changed (the window buttons only moved, and
> the menus collapsed into the app's titlebar).

This is not a small deal, as illustrated above.

> ... You can even replace the
> Alt-tab app if you don't like it. You can click on an launcher icon to
> switch between multiple windows of an app. Middle-click to launch a
> new instance... it's not just a dumb selector anymore.

And when your workflow is mixed apps?

> There are also other shortcuts to access multiple windows in different
> ways, eg. Shift+Alt+up_arrow (tile apps on current workspace) and
> suprt+w tile all active apps, and more.

This is an improvement.  I will have to try that.  As I said, I am 
looking for a solution, and if Unity becomes that, fantastik.  But it is 
not there yet.

>> Right now I have 4 windows open and
>> visible.  They are at all of the edges of the screen.  If I move a
>> window to the top of the screen in Unity, it goes full screen, and I
>> have to move it back and jack with it.
>
> Yes that's a Compiz feature called 'Grid' (not Unity! It's existed
> long before, just like multiple desktop-workspaces). If you don't like
> it, disable it with the Compiz-Config app.

First, it was not enabled by default before.  Second, you need to 
install an application to disable it.  Third, you need to know that you 
need that application...

> I've activated compiz edge-flipping myself to drag windows to other
> desktops in stead of tiling them on the current workspace / desktop.

This is nice.  Especially since you can no longer right click and "Move 
to workspace Right."

>> If I want to find a window, I
>> have to go via the App menu first.  This is not how I and many others do
>> work.  It slows me down a LOT.  Also the search instead of a menu...  I
>> have this DNS server benchmarking application installed.  What was it
>> called again?  Search DNS, but nope...
>
> If you've used the app a couple of times it will float to the top; if
> you can't search it, you should be able to click apps and it should be
> at the top of the list of often used apps.

How often do you need to benchmark your name servers?  It is never a 
frequently used app.  That is why I forgot the name.

>> Or in Gnome 2, I go to
>> Applications ->  Internet and find NameBench.  That was it!  (Yes, this
>> actually happened.
>
> You also see many other things you don't need to see in the menus...
> you also have to drill down those menus EVERY time, regardless of how
> often you use the apps.

Agreed, this can be overwhelming.  The search is a fantastic feature, no 
doubt.  As is the adaptive menus.  But burying the hard menus is a 
detriment to some.

>> Whose poll?  omgubuntu is a nice blog, but it has a audience skewed
>> toward the non-technical. (Of Linux users, which is highly technical,
>> but hang on)
>
> Please provide evidence of this skew.

Look at the "Most Read This Week" section.  Find an article that is 
highly technical.

> But yes, preferably a poll in the ubuntu desktop user community. A
> poll testing usage of Unity in some other non-ubuntu community would
> be pointless since only Ubuntu uses unity.

The problem is that users are mobile.  And the users most effected by 
this are the ones that can most easily move.

>>   Look at Linus,
>> Eric Raymond, Richard Stalman...  They are all leaving Ubuntu or Gnome
>> right now.  And they do not take polls at omgubuntu...
>
> Ignoring the fact that you seem really presumptuous about these guys...
> In debate we refer to this type of argument as: "Appealing to
> Authority" - it is a logical fallacy.

I think you misunderstood.  While they are people in authority, they are 
also people who work the way I do.  I can also tell you about Bob and 
Thomas, but that would have no relevance to you.  But many people have 
found that Unity gets in the way of them doing work.

>>   >  Certain people find it hard to adapt I find, more due to old habits
>>   >  than the new paradigm being inferior in design or concept.
>>
>> I can adapt.  I can drive a nail with a rock.  But there is this well
>> working hammer right here, and I would rather use that.
>
> Good for you! Exercise your linux privilege of: choice.
> But please stop dissing those of us who choose to like it... we are
> not stupid, and we do not need you herding us like sheep.
> You're aware we're not talking about hammers and nails here?! (cliché... yawn)

This is where I think I have been most misunderstood.  I am not dissing 
you, or Unity.  I am saying that it does not work for me. (And many 
others like me)  I am not saying we need to remove Unity.  I am saying I 
do not want THEM to remove Gnome 2.  With some work, they could 
co-exist.  But some people decided that Gnome 2 must die.  (Not 
Canonical but within Gnome)  Many of us disagree.

>> As to the other comment about applications, I am also running the nvidia
>> ppa and the firefox ppa, the WINE ppa, and some others, so I am not
>> totally in the dark ages here.

> I have no doubt you know what you're doing, but consider the
> possibility that you yourself may have been more a victim of other
> people's FUD than you may like to admit.

Not at all.  I tried very hard to adapt to Unity.  I cursed a lot, and 
kept trying.  But there is no way to do the work I do efficiently with 
that Desktop Environment at this time.  I hope this changes, but I am 
hedging my bets.

> Have a pleasant xmas and new year.

And the same to you and yours.

			Lee